The Turbines Are Coming! The Turbines Are Coming!

[Seligman Sub]

Sounds like they need to hire someone whose a N scaler or has experience with N scale locomotives from a manufacturing standpoint.  Hopefully they learn from their mistakes when they introduce the ET44s GEVOs   

[basementcalling]

Increasingly glad I did not splurge on one.

[peteski]

Increasingly glad I did not splurge on one.

But these are beautiful models with advanced features, but as I say "they're not Katos" <ducking under my desk>.

I really wish I understood why the Chinese designers don't just use a reliable proven design and why the people in US who approve their design simply don't tell them to do do that.  Like I mentioned, just show them few current models by Kato or Atlas and tell them to design something similar.  The people in US (or Canada)who approve the model are pretty much all experienced model manufacturers and in some case modelers too.

But even Atlas S-2 is starting to stay away from the "standard" design.  No more split-frame mechanism and wired-in trucks. But at least in this example I can see some valid reasons they went that way. However there is a lot of empty space inside that chassis which could have been filled with metal (to increase the weight.  At least they still kept the low-friction truck design.

[Mark W]

...auto-tuning the Back EMF in the decoders? Independently, place each loco on the powered track, with about 6' of clear track, then, with Program on the Main, set CV54=0. Then press F1...

If you're going to do that I would recommend doing both together, it will match them together nicely....

Well I gave this a try tonight.  I did them independently at first to keep variables to a minimum.  When I hit F1, each unit took off with a jack-rabbit start (expected this), and then a wile-e-coyote instant stop just 8-10 inches away.  I was expecting quite a bit more natural momentum on the cut-out; like, you now how cutting power to a high-balling Kato, the flywheels keep it coasting for a good foot or so as it slows to a stop.  This was more like it just hit a brick. 

Nonetheless, completed this for both A and B.  First observation: prior to the calibration, the Turbine would top out when the throttle was at about 30.  30+ had no affect on speed.  Now, it definitely uses the full range.   I have to crank all the way to Throttle @99 to get about 65-70smph now.   For grade performance, I rank the post-calibration performance a solid C.  We got a 40 car train to the top, but there was still noticeable slowing.   With the throttle @99 equaling 70smph on level, Throttle@99 equaled 40smph going up the hill.

At this point I looked at AKNscale's comment, which makes sense to think drag/push of the second loco should be factored into that calibration, so let's give it a try.  Put both A and B on the track, coupled together, and re-calibrated.  Again, instant start, instant stop after 8-10 inches.  Throttle still required 99 to get 70smph.  Grade performance back down to fail.  The turbine again stalled though I will say, it made it much further up the grade compared to the out-of-the-box performance. 

Well, let's go back to at least making it up the grade.  Independently re-calibrated again.  This time each unit traveled about 2 feet before instant-stopping again.  Unfortunately, this didn't affect the grade performance like the first independent calibration did.  We're still stalling.  Still making it further up than the o.o.t.b., but stalling is stalling.   

Back to square one. 

[Mark W]

Increasingly glad I did not splurge on one.

I share Mike's concern about the ability to maintain these and keep them rolling on scale rails for years to come.  It's quite apparent the engineering design is lacking.  Nonetheless, I'm still glad I made the purchase and gave a new product from a new manufacturer a chance.   Let's just hope they acknowledge these issues and do not make the same mistake twice.  Failing to do that is the only way I'll regret my purchase.

For instance, if they do release the Tier 4 GEVo in N Scale, please, please, PLEASE, use pointed axle pickups.  Sure, the rotating axle bearing caps on the HO model are cool.  But being HO scale, the wiper design is probably much more forgiving as well.  Not so in N Scale.  I am not willing to sacrifice reliable performance for that kind of detail. 

[peteski]

Well I gave this a try tonight.  I did them independently at first to keep variables to a minimum.  When I hit F1, each unit took off with a jack-rabbit start (expected this), and then a wile-e-coyote instant stop just 8-10 inches away.  I was expecting quite a bit more natural momentum on the cut-out; like, you now how cutting power to a high-balling Kato, the flywheels keep it coasting for a good foot or so as it slows to a stop.  This was more like it just hit a brick. 

With the wheel-back wipers (on all 6 wheels in each truck) and relatively high-friction inside bearings, the lack of coasting is hardly surprising.

[RBrodzinsky]

Reset the BEMF CVs to factory default, then try the auto-tune again. I do LokSounds/Pilots independently. I tried doing a lash up today (on my F3 A/B/B conversion), and it was an epic fail. Reset, did independently and all was fine. Check the Vmax setting for top speed. Note: for ESU decoders, Vmax is still active, even when using speed table. The speed table is simply the shape of the curve between Vmin and Vmax

Even the Kato locos come to an abrupt stop. The first time I tried this, scared the crap out of me.

Disclaimer: I haven't even gotten to play with the turbines yet. Did only a quick unpack and test run, and now they are wrapped until my birthday celebration next weekend.

[CBQ Fan]

All this DCC talk makes me think of the little British sports cars of the sixties. Guys spending all their time tuning multiple carbs trying to get it to run right instead of jumping in their car and spending the weekends driving on winding roads with the top down and your girl in the seat next to you.

[basementcalling]

I share Mike's concern about the ability to maintain these and keep them rolling on scale rails for years to come.  It's quite apparent the engineering design is lacking.  Nonetheless, I'm still glad I made the purchase and gave a new product from a new manufacturer a chance.   Let's just hope they acknowledge these issues and do not make the same mistake twice.  Failing to do that is the only way I'll regret my purchase.

For instance, if they do release the Tier 4 GEVo in N Scale, please, please, PLEASE, use pointed axle pickups.  Sure, the rotating axle bearing caps on the HO model are cool.  But being HO scale, the wiper design is probably much more forgiving as well.  Not so in N Scale.  I am not willing to sacrifice reliable performance for that kind of detail.

Had I not bought a brass version some years ago, I would have been buying even though my era has shifted. Scale Trains got plenty of my money for containers.  For a new company with veteran leadership, there seems to have been a disconnect somewhere in this project's engineering. Makes me appreciate just how good the folks at Kato are, and how much Atlas learned from them in the 80s and early 90s when Kato was making engines for Atlas.

I'm sure the many smart modelers on here will figure out solutions to fix these issues, but at $350 a pop and up, there really shouldn't be any to fix.

[Seligman Sub]

After seeing some reviews on youtube and some high quality pics some of the grabs on the ladders and ladder stirrups looks like they've been installed crooked.  Can anyone who has them confirm if they've had any problems with the grab irons or is it just a bad angle or an illusion?  I think ST can push N scale forward but looks like they are having a few growing pains.  If they start making ET44s in their rivet counter N scale line my wallet will hurt for a looong time.

[C855B]

> ...some of the grabs on the ladders and ladder stirrups looks like they've been installed crooked. ...

Not that I've noticed on the two I have, but I wouldn't be surprised. Here's my fit-and-finish issue, notice the right windshield was glued askew:



I'm taking a break from working on it for a couple of days, but probably should pop it out and fix before running it at a show this weekend.

[peteski]

So the windshield is glued in incorrectly.  That was the first thing that jumped out at me when you posted the original photo earlier in the thread. It wasn't an illusion. 

I also noticed another interesting "feature" on these models: the top grab-iron on the side of the nose is unpainted plastic instead of painted metal like the rest of those grabs.  The plastic one also seems a bit thicker than the metal ones To me it stands out quite prominently.  I wonder why they did that?  Possibly because of its more complex shape? Funny how models are designed . . .

[up1950s]

With the wheel-back wipers (on all 6 wheels in each truck) and relatively high-friction inside bearings, the lack of coasting is hardly surprising.

That is a fact with an unproven degree of consequence . How much of the jack rabbit start and the brick wall stop can be attributed to better than average adhesion . One would need to do a unpowered pull test and compare it to another c-c loco .

[Robert_56]

Anyone else have this problem? B unit coupler screws are too short. The turbines front coupler screw was not even in its mounting hole which caused it to ride on top of the A unit's rear coupler. Looks to be a small metal block it is supposed to attach to. Problem was found when replacing the stock couplers with some MTL 1015's, the shorter screws will not allow mounting the couplers to the turbine unit. MTL screws (silver) do not look to be a direct replacement (different threads) and good bit longer 5.34mm. The A unit screw measures 3.92mm the B unit screws measure 3.04 and 2.99mm. Apologies for the blurry picture.



Hadn't noticed a difference in the handrails like Peteski mentions but do have a somewhat wonky windshield that pokes out similar to what Mike's photo shows.

[peteski]

Hadn't noticed a difference in the handrails like Peteski mentions but do have a somewhat wonky windshield that pokes out similar to what Mike's photo shows.

This photo clearly shows the difference.
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Not only the unpainted grab is thicker, it has that semi-translucent plastic color which doesn't match the yellow paint.

So I finally had a chance to take my set out of the box to dive into it. The sound effects are really good!  I only have a short piece of test track handy so I couldn't check whether my set exhibits the weird behavior going up an incline, but from what I observed the BEMF feedback does really good job of keeping the motor running even under heavy load (as I press down on the model with my finger, or push against the front of the loco).

I cracked open the A unit and the beauty seems only skin-deep - boy, did I open a can of worms!  I'm going to have get this model in line for one of my technical reviews. 

Even before I took the shell off I noticed that front of the the shell wasn't fully seating down on the chassis.  I tried pressing it down but it wouldn't budge. The sides (around the cab doors were also noticeable spread away from the chassis).  After some detective work I figured out that the problem was the speaker enclosure and a bundle of wires routed over the top of it.  There isn't enough clearance over the top of the chassis so the wires hit the inside the roof of the shell preventing it from fully seating over the chassis.

When I dug deeper I noticed that the screws holding the speaker enclosure were not tightened (they were very loose).  If fully tightened they make the front of the speaker enclosure go up even further exacerbating the problem.  Instead of routing all those wires over the speaker enclosure, they should  have designed a channel for all the wires under the speaker enclosure. That would allow the shell to fully set down on the chassis. Looks like I'll have to make that modification myself.

It also noticed that one of the motor terminals is jammed tightly against the upper metal chassis. While I suspect that the metal chassis is electrically neutral, it is still not a good idea to have the motor terminal possibly short to it.  The PC board layout is also not very well thought out - I would have done it differently to minimize wire runs.

Another thing I at first thought was an excellent feature was the number-boards. But then disappointment set in.  The idea was very good, but the execution - not so much.  On the 1:1 loco the number boards clearly show some depth. The number panels appear to be inset from the glass covers.  That was nicely replicated on the model by painting the number boards on the inside of the clear plastic "glass"  That gives them noticeable depth, even in N scale. But as well as the look while not illuminated, when the back-lighting is turned on, the result is disappointing.  The LEDs don't illuminate the numbers!

The problem is with how these were printed.  They started with the clear part and first printed the withe numbers on the inside. Then the next printing operation was to print solid black background on the inside. But black paint is opaque so the light from the LEDs is blocked by the solid black background and never passes through the white lettering.    If I was doing those, I would have first printed black with cutouts for the letter shapes, then on 2nd pass I would have printed solid white background. The white paint would show up through the open areas in the black paint and it would be translucent to pass the light through it.  That way the LED would actually illuminate the white lettering.

It seems to me that Scale Trains might have spent too much of the budget on the rivet-counting details, and not enough on sound mechanical and electrical design.  I'm not trying to bash this model - after all I plopped down $500 (MSRP $600) on this model. I'm just disappointed that there are so many engineering mistakes. For this price the model should be flawless (or only have some very slight cosmetic flaws).  Not sub-par engineering.

I also think that model companies should ask some extra-anal modelers (not a company employee) to review the prototype model for flaws. Sometimes it is good to have another pair of eyes to catch things missed by the engineers and designers.