The Turbines Are Coming! The Turbines Are Coming!

[w neal]

This:

"I plopped down $500 (MSRP $600) on this model. I'm just disappointed that there are so many engineering mistakes. For this price the model should be flawless (or only have some very slight cosmetic flaws).  Not sub-par engineering.

[C855B]

... It seems to me that Scale Trains might have spent ... not enough on sound mechanical and electrical design. ...

What puzzles me is there was a solid, reliable and proven cab-unit design out there - the Kato E - that should have been used as a reference. It could easily have been copied, modified for sound and they would have been done. The ST chassis design is something out of Rube Goldberg.

I will endure with mine because they are scene-makers in the context of my MRR, but if it wasn't for that I'd be sending the one back that I haven't opened a dozen times.

You know... and not to scale bash... but ScaleTrains and BLI are run by HO'ers. Both approach N scale chassis design as mini HO versions. While my BLI fleet mostly hasn't needed tinkering to run right (I do have one cranky E9), I feel their chassis is also on the edge of long-term operability. I have to wonder how much life I'm going to get out of those before the bench time becomes excessive.

[C855B]

You know, it just occurred to me that the higher price of ST and BLI diesels relative to the rest may have some basis in their chassis design which requires large amounts of hand assembly time. I've first-hand experienced the excessive "fussiness" in the many, many more parts and complexity of assembly that comes with their design philosophy. Kato, Atlas, etc., mechanicals are butt-simple. I can usually tear down a Kato or Atlas loco in under five minutes, reassemble in under ten (some exceptions). Even with practice, the ST turbine takes at least 30-45 minutes to get everything right including (as Pete alluded) getting wires poked into the right places before the shell goes back on, which is then followed by 10 minutes messing with the couplers.

Something crazy I also just thought about is the non-sound version has the separately assembled speaker box attached to the chassis lid with screws. It weighs nothing, and there's certainly no reason to include it other than production line assembly consistency. Next time I have the thing apart I'll pull it out as one less protrusion to snag a wire.

[RBrodzinsky]

I keep reading comments such as "they should have copied the Kato/Atlas/... designs for xxx".   While I know nothing about the relations between the companies, one though keeps popping up in my mind -- intellectual property.   I don't know who, if any, holds the patents on the current/modern designs (my bet is Kato), but it is always possible that ScaleTrains might not have been able to license them. 

Just saying, there may be more to the design decision making process than we know.

[drgw0579]

intellectual property is a foreign concept in China. 

There may not be any applicable patents.  If you look at the Kato "innovations" it could be argued that many of them were refinements of previous designs.  For instance the needle-bearing axles used to transfer the power from the axles to the body.  You might find that this was ones used 50 years ago, maybe by Lionel or American Flyer, if so that would be in public domain.  At least that's what I understand, corrections welcome.



Bill Kepner

[C855B]

Any patents would have expired on the split-frame design years ago. Notice that Atlas uses the (C) copyright on their frames... copyright is not how you protect design concepts.

No, I still assert this problem is HO-oriented product designers not understanding successful N scale chassis engineering.

[peteski]

Kato's excellent split-frame with low-friction trucks design has been widely copied accepted by other manufacturers. Legally or illegaly.  I suspect that thre was no legal agreements - design engineers who adopted the design simply realized that it made sense to do as Kato did.  It is a very simple design (with low parts count and easy assembly) which is well thought out and well-functioning.

Yes I'm tooting the proverbial Kato's horn because they deserve it. Just look at some of the other Frankensteins other companies keep putting out time and time again.  Unlike MTL (which prominently mentions their patents on their products), I never seen any patent numbers or even mention of patents on Kato's products or packaging. So I suspect that others have simply copied their excellent design without any legal agreements.

Another thing I forgot to mention in my last post was that like others, I had tough time re-installing the couplers. The hole in the coupler box is so small that the screws made a thread inside the home which makes really hard to find the screw hole in the chassis. I drilled out the coupler box hole with #55 drill but it is still a bit small. I probably shoudl have used #54 bit. I might do that next time I take it apart.  They should have used smaller screws!

[CBQ Fan]

What is the best caboose to go with this engine set?

[C855B]

What is the best caboose to go with this engine set?

Centralia Car Shops CA-3 or CA-4 is the only available mass-produced model of the UP caboose of the era. The trucks that come with them aren't right, but there are correct Shapeways replacements here.

[basementcalling]

What puzzles me is there was a solid, reliable and proven cab-unit design out there - the Kato E - that should have been used as a reference. It could easily have been copied, modified for sound and they would have been done. The ST chassis design is something out of Rube Goldberg.

I will endure with mine because they are scene-makers in the context of my MRR, but if it wasn't for that I'd be sending the one back that I haven't opened a dozen times.

You know... and not to scale bash... but ScaleTrains and BLI are run by HO'ers. Both approach N scale chassis design as mini HO versions. While my BLI fleet mostly hasn't needed tinkering to run right (I do have one cranky E9), I feel their chassis is also on the edge of long-term operability. I have to wonder how much life I'm going to get out of those before the bench time becomes excessive.

Actually, if the had used a PA-1 as their guide I think everything would have been perfect except maybe the truck spacing. Or that's what I remember from my research on a kitbash/scratchbuidling turbine chassis starting point.

[CBQ Fan]

Centralia Car Shops CA-3 or CA-4 is the only available mass-produced model of the UP caboose of the era. The trucks that come with them aren't right, but there are correct Shapeways replacements here.

Awesome!  Thanks.

[C855B]

Actually, if the had used a PA-1 as their guide I think everything would have been perfect except maybe the truck spacing. Or that's what I remember from my research on a kitbash/scratchbuidling turbine chassis starting point.

Super... thanks for the confirmation. I was running the "troubled" pair just a few minutes ago and was entertaining the fantasy of what it would take to put a Kato chassis underneath. I'm not going to take on anything that severe at this point, at least not until I populate the other pair with encoders and assess how badly (or not) I screw them up.

[Mark W]

I was able to fiddle with my Turbine some more tonight and now have everything running perfect! 

After doing a fresh decoder reset, I opened up Decoder Pro and turned off all BEMF settings.  Doing so in the panel of the ESU LokSound Select profile, I noticed a few other CV's automatically changed with it.  I went ahead and wrote all changes to each unit of the turbine, one by one.  With all three set, I grabbed a 45 car train and headed to the mountain.  Apparent slowdown is now only about 20% going up the 1.6% grade, well within reason for this load!  I can only guess my first attempt via throttle was missing some of those automatic changes that I saw within the panels of Decoder Pro.  Either they were also supposed to change before, or Decoder Pro just knew of some extra settings to change that I didn't.  Either way, here's #18 coming down onto the planes from the now conquered mountain in the background!

[ntex]

   I've been following this thread for a while now, and I have to say I'm very happy
with my #14 with sound.
   I have been looking at it, listening to it and running it
for a better part of a week and can't find one rivet out of place nor any
problems with the DCC sound.
   As a matter of fact it my best sounding decoder out of ten sound
locomotives and over 100 dcc locomotives. This of course and is just
my mileage and yours might vary.

Steve Fass
Frisco Tx

[peteski]

   I've been following this thread for a while now, and I have to say I'm very happy
with my #14 with sound.
   I have been looking at it, listening to it and running it
for a better part of a week and can't find one rivet out of place nor any
problems with the DCC sound.
   As a matter of fact it my best sounding decoder out of ten sound
locomotives and over 100 dcc locomotives. This of course and is just
my mileage and yours might vary.

Steve Fass
Frisco Tx

I agree that the sound itself is excellent.
But I did find other things to nitpick (if you read this entire thread then you know what I found so far).  Everybody also has different standards or expectations.