The Turbines Are Coming! The Turbines Are Coming!

[CBQ Fan]

No kidding, I actually saw a RB-B&B circus train being pulled by a turbine in '66 or '67. It was eastbound, in the valley approaching Green River. It was pure luck of time and place, as this was an area I could only railfan by happenstance of passing through once every other year. I was 12 at the time and the family was on the return leg of a trip visiting grandparents in the East. Dad wasn't about to turn around for it ("D*** trains!") and my little plastic 120 film snapshot camera wouldn't have resolved it anyway from the highway up on the bluff.

Noise and passenger complaints aside, turbines couldn't do passenger service. They had no steam generators, for one thing. Sure, you could tack a passenger unit on it for that, but what a waste of resources. The other problem, however, since they were largely confined to the North Platte-SLC mainline pool, was no appropriate trains to run them on - everything that ran in the area was through service. There was little advantage and negative schedule impact to swap power at each end of the turbine-allowed zone.

Of course, never say "never", but I will go out on a limb with "emergency only" if at all, and that would be on the front to assist the normal power. That circus train is probably the closest, and, sadly, with no known pictures I can't even prove that.

My comment was tongue in cheek. Mine will be running on the Q racetrack upsetting the Chicago suburbanites!!

[genemaddox]

I just finish putting the decoders on mine, I used Digitrax DH166MT on both units. This thing are Kato like smooth and quiet. I did not have any issues taking of the shells, just took off the couplers and they came right off.

Can I use a DH126MT? instead of the DH166MT? Is there any advantage to using the DH166MT other than the 6 functions? How many functions do I really need?
gene maddox

[C855B]

Three. Front headlight, rear headlight, number boards. Not that all three are present on either the A or B, but the number boards are wired for a unique Fx key (F1). You probably will be able to get a two-function to work as expected in the B, but I can't verify that.

[sundowner]

Can I use a DH126MT? instead of the DH166MT? Is there any advantage to using the DH166MT other than the 6 functions? How many functions do I really need?
gene maddox

As long as it has the 21MTC plug it should be fine.

[Roger Holmes]

First, I remain a strong believer in what Scale Trains is doing and have enjoyed several in person conversations with Shane at various train shows.  The turbines are everything I expected in terms of looks.

Now the sad part.  I can't program the A unit and, much worse, I have had two couplers fail and in trying to replace them I broke off a screw in the coupler mounting hole using only a tiny jeweler's Phillips screwdriver and not much torque.  The end coupler on the A unit and the front coupler on the B unit both lost the springs that hold the knuckle closed while pulling 29 Micro-Trains cars through a 17" radius 180 degree (U shaped) curve.  I had one of the springs for a little while but it flew into the nether world on my 4th try to get it on the two pegs.

I installed Unimate II RNP-51060 couplers to replace the two broken ones.  Back on the layout the A and B stayed coupled for about the first 40 feet and then disengaged due to the fact that they drooped slightly.  I tried to tighten the mounting screw to eliminate the droop and that's when the B unit screw broke off.  There is a little nub sticking up but so far no joy in getting pliers, tweezers and hemostats to grip it for unscrewing.  I will call Scale Trains Monday and ask for their recommendation for a fix.

As to the A unit I had no luck programming in my shop where I use a Digtrax Zephyr in blast mode with a Power Pax booster in Direct, Paged and Physical.  You can't use OPS with the Power Pax booster.  All I was trying to do was to change the roadnumber from 3 to 7.  Using the same set-up I changed the number on the B unit and tender on the first try.

Down to the basement to the layout and my Digitrax Super Chief.  Same thing including easily changing the number on the B unit and tender.  I did finally get the roadnumber changed to 7 on the A using OPS.  As soon as I took it off the tracks the number changed back to 3.

I ordered these in July and am so impressed with their looks.  I just hope that I'll be able to run them on the layout eventually.

[C855B]

... Now the sad part.  I can't program the A unit and, much worse, I have had two couplers fail and in trying to replace them I broke off a screw in the coupler mounting hole using only a tiny jeweler's Phillips screwdriver and not much torque.  The end coupler on the A unit and the front coupler on the B unit both lost the springs that hold the knuckle closed while pulling 29 Micro-Trains cars through a 17" radius 180 degree (U shaped) curve.  I had one of the springs for a little while but it flew into the nether world on my 4th try to get it on the two pegs. ...

Yes, the couplers are a weak area in the product, further compounded by the annoyance that the only way to remove the shell is by removing the coupler boxes. The pressure required for the first couple of removal/replacements of the screws is also troubling, and I'm sorry to hear that you broke one. No surprise. Like you, I had a knuckle spring go flying into the ether, thankful that spares were included.

I hope to get serious in the next two weeks about replacement of all except maybe the rear tender coupler with MTL TSCs. That'll fix their little red wagon!

As to your programming issues... can't help you there. As mentioned, I installed non-sound ESU decoders. I also have a Zephyr as my bench unit, but program via JMRI and a PR3.

[basementcalling]

Saw one on the demo track at kleins. Other than running in turbine mode while reversing it was impressive looking, and maybe sounding.

[powersteamguy1790]

First, I remain a strong believer in what Scale Trains is doing and have enjoyed several in person conversations with Shane at various train shows.  The turbines are everything I expected in terms of looks.

Now the sad part.  I can't program the A unit and, much worse, I have had two couplers fail and in trying to replace them I broke off a screw in the coupler mounting hole using only a tiny jeweler's Phillips screwdriver and not much torque.  The end coupler on the A unit and the front coupler on the B unit both lost the springs that hold the knuckle closed while pulling 29 Micro-Trains cars through a 17" radius 180 degree (U shaped) curve.  I had one of the springs for a little while but it flew into the nether world on my 4th try to get it on the two pegs.

I installed Unimate II RNP-51060 couplers to replace the two broken ones.  Back on the layout the A and B stayed coupled for about the first 40 feet and then disengaged due to the fact that they drooped slightly.  I tried to tighten the mounting screw to eliminate the droop and that's when the B unit screw broke off.  There is a little nub sticking up but so far no joy in getting pliers, tweezers and hemostats to grip it for unscrewing. 

Roger :

 I received my Scale Trains 8500 GTEL Turbines last week and had the same trouble as you did concerning the couplers . I was able to change the locomotive's number to # 14, but still haven't programmed all the individual CV's on the three units. At this point in time they have about two hours of running time on my layout without pulling any cars. The factory installed  McHenry type couplers are mediocre at best

This is what I posted on TB last week.

I received my UP GTEL 8500 "Big Blow'" #14 DCC ESU Lok-Sound Turbines this morning. The detail on these locomotives is outstanding. I placed each unit on the mainline of the layout and had difficult coupling the second unit to the tender. On very close inspection, the spring in the front McHenry type coupler of the tender was missing. I then very closely examined the rest of the couplers on the three units. I also noticed the spring on the front coupler of the second locomotive unit was just hanging in limbo and the second locomotive wouldn't couple to the main unit.

On close examination of this coupler under magnification, these couplers appear to be extremely fragile. What I decided to do was an easy fix for me. Since these units will never be uncoupled. I decided to place a a small dab of CA cement to lock the front tender coupler knuckle in the closed position. Also did the same thing with the front coupler of the second locomotive. When the CA cement set up, I ran the three units together on the layout in forward and reverse for about 30 minutes with no further problems using DCC address # 3. Later on I will find the time to reprogram all the CV's as per directions. You must program each unit on the programming track separately. They cannot be programmed on the mainline.

I also plan to use some CA cement on the rear coupler of the tender because these couplers look so fragile and my main concern is the GTEL's ability to pull consist of over 40+ cars without uncoupling. I usually run trains of over 55 cars with IM F-7's with no trouble.

I've been using MT Z scale couplers on many of my locomotives and cars since 2003 or 2004 and I'm going to look into the possibility of using MT Z scale #905's on the GTEL units. I completely trust the MT Z scale #905's with long consists of cars as I've been using them on my locomotives and rolling stock for over 13 years.

It seems to me that these factory installed McHenry type couplers on the GTEL units are a very weak link of these units and they don't look particularly trustworthy trying to pull long strings of cars over 40+ units especially on any grades. Something so simple to design and yet so complicated. I have a 1 1/2% long 40 foot grade on my layout.


Bob.........

[Roger Holmes]

Update--I emailed Scale Trains regarding the coupler failure problem and A unit programming issue that I posted earlier in this thread.  I received a lengthy telephone call in less than 24 hours and my set is on its way to Mike at Scale Trains at their California repair facility.  Mike indicated that they were aware of the N scale Turbine coupler issues and are working with the factory on a redesign.  Progress has been slowed by the Chinese New Year which, with employee travel time, results in about a month of factory downtime.  I asked him to keep my units until the new design is available.

As to the A unit programming issues while the B and tender programmed easily, he had no immediate theory and says they will repair.

[dougnelson]

These turbines are awesome.....but not exactly up my alley.  Wait - maybe they will do a faux PRR scheme like BLI did a faux UP scheme of the Centipede?  Naw, Scale Trains is smarter than BLI.  And they don't make kids shoes with decoders in them.

[peteski]

I was a bit disappointed that we have yet another new model using the old-school truck design. They have inside-bearings and electric pickup strips rubbing the backs of the wheels.   While this design works, the now-well-proven Kato-style low-friction truck design is so much better.

Judging by the design of the clear plastic cradles holding the model, and the truck design I will venture a guess that these were designed/manufactured by the same company which makes PIKO H0 models (European prototypes).

Too bad that the model train manufacturers aren't doing what Apple Computer does: Designed in USA, manufactured in China.  That would most likely result in more advanced designs.

[C855B]

Yeah, that surprised me, too. Come to think about it, when I was running last night the A was losing power on long turnouts where I haven't powered the frogs yet. With that behavior one truck must not be picking up, so I believe the wire to one of the contact strips must have pulled away from the solder tab. I had to fix one already... an in-your-face cold joint. Now I have to open the thing up for the fourth? fifth? time.

Anyway... to the truck design. The inference from ScaleTrains announcement/preview video featuring "their dedicated factory in China" was they were doing all their own design work. The video spent plenty of time looking over the shoulders of CAD designers at work. So if you think the PIKO design may be a progenitor, I can suppose that it might be due to ScaleTrains hiring away a design engineer. OTOH, the clear plastic cradles are identical in form to the ones Bachmann uses for the DCC DDA40X, so I wouldn't read too much into it - it might simply be a common subcontractor for the packaging sleeves.

[peteski]

Yeah, that surprised me, too. Come to think about it, when I was running last night the A was losing power on long turnouts where I haven't powered the frogs yet. With that behavior one truck must not be picking up, so I believe the wire to one of the contact strips must have pulled away from the solder tab. I had to fix one already... an in-your-face cold joint. Now I have to open the thing up for the fourth? fifth? time.

Anyway... to the truck design. The inference from ScaleTrains announcement/preview video featuring "their dedicated factory in China" was they were doing all their own design work. The video spent plenty of time looking over the shoulders of CAD designers at work. So if you think the PIKO design may be a progenitor, I can suppose that it might be due to ScaleTrains hiring away a design engineer. OTOH, the clear plastic cradles are identical in form to the ones Bachmann uses for the DCC DDA40X, so I wouldn't read too much into it - it might simply be a common subcontractor for the packaging sleeves.

If we assume that the plastic cradles are subcontracted to yet another company in China then you do have a valid point.

You are also correct that the reps of US companies are in close contact with the Chinese designers, but that is not the same as having the model actually designed in US/Canada by US/Canadian designers.   We had Bill S. from Rapido Trains (their product development guru) as a guest speaker at the Winterfest NTRAK convention during the Springfield show.  He gave us a very informative presentation of how they produce their models (from research to the final product). It was quite enlightening.

There are many possibilities for communication breakdown between the western mother-ship and China. Some of the many problems are language barrier and even cultural  differences.   Bill also agreed with me that there is more to making a good model than just accurately scaled CAD design. To make a really good model the designer needs to also posses those artistic abilities which can't really be learned in school. That is something that a person will develop in time (or some never will). The young Chinese design engineers they hire often don't poses that "right touch" for designing good models.  And I see that Chinese-designed models often lack that special touch which makes the model look just right.

[Mark W]

Has anyone else had issues with their Turbine waddling and lunging?  This occurs in both my A and B units.

I'm also have the most peculiar problem of slow down on grades.  On level track, my set can easily pull 60+ cars.  However climbing a 1.6% grade, on one run I had to cut all but 4, yes four cars!  To make the issue even more bizarre, the set does not spin wheels or completely stop, they simply slows to a perfect crawl.  They'll still actually pull a full train up the grade, just at a deathly slow pace; maybe 1 foot every 10 minutes.  If I disconnect everything beyond 4-6 cars, the set takes off at expected pace.  6-12 is a noticeable slowdown, 12+ is unbearable.   

[peteski]

Has anyone else had issues with their Turbine waddling and lunging?  This occurs in both my A and B units.

I'm also have the most peculiar problem of slow down on grades.  On level track, my set can easily pull 60+ cars.  However climbing a 1.6% grade, on one run I had to cut all but 4, yes four cars!  To make the issue even more bizarre, the set does not spin wheels or completely stop, they simply slows to a perfect crawl.  They'll still actually pull a full train up the grade, just at a deathly slow pace; maybe 1 foot every 10 minutes.  If I disconnect everything beyond 4-6 cars, the set takes off at expected pace.  6-12 is a noticeable slowdown, 12+ is unbearable.   

Are using them in DC or DCC?