The Turbines Are Coming! The Turbines Are Coming!

[C855B]

So what's the verdict on the turbines?

Dissatisfaction with the chassis is as noted above. I'm reserving overall judgment until installing the decoders on the second set I have and see if that elicits similar gremlins.

Frankly, after a couple of hours of running, the first set sounds like a coffee grinder now [updated, see newer post below] - both units, just awful. I don't know how much of that was due to my disassembly or whether it's endemic. Ron, if you are game and have the time and interest, I would be happy to send it your way to evaluate and, with luck, un-do my apparently hamfisted reassembly.

FWIW, I had a brief correspondence with the importer's product support guy, politely asking "WTF?" with the chassis design, especially the wheel wipers and no split chassis, intimating the approach was a throwback. The response was it was designed per recommendation of the (China) factory engineers, and "We will keep your thoughts in mind as we move forward with other N-Scale projects."

[peteski]

FWIW, I had a brief correspondence with the importer's product support guy, politely asking "WTF?" with the chassis design, especially the wheel wipers and no split chassis, intimating the approach was a throwback. The response was it was designed per recommendation of the (China) factory engineers, and "We will keep your thoughts in mind as we move forward with other N-Scale projects."

The seems to be the common problem for several American model train manufacturers  - they outsource both the design and manufacturing to China, and they seem to depend on the Chinese engineer's know-how and recommendation for how to make their models.  The Scale Trains founders are well-seasoned in model manufacturing so it is surprising that they are accepting those seemingly-inferior Chinese mechanism design.

Too bad that the model manufacturers do not follow the Apple Computer's models of developing products: Designed in USA, made in China. 

[robert3985]

I'm running four old Hallmark Geeps, and six old Hallmark F's that I've had for a couple of decades now.  Their mechanism is really simple, with phosphor bronze wipers on the wheels with wires running up the motor, and they run really well.  I've never had any problems with the electrical pickup on any of them, although I've had that damn nylon idler crack and make them jump down the track like a kangaroo mouse four times.  After replacing those dried and cracked nylon idlers with factory brass ones, they run really good.

Now, I'm converting them to DCC sound, since DC is not allowed on my layout any longer...plenty of room for decoder, extra weight, caps and a well-enclosed speaker in all of them.

I don't have any gripes whatsoever about them, other than the stirrups on the F-units have to be removed for them to operate because the investment-cast truck sideframes are too wide. 

As for their crude, primitive mechanisms...they work okay.  I believe they were manufactured by Ajin, or Samhongsa...so the "wiper technology" is not Chinese...but either Korean or Japanese.

Although I don't have one of these new turbines, and I probably never will get one since they are (unfortunately) two years newer than my layout era allows, I really don't have any gripes about wipers and wires in an N-scale model.

So, what's the beef all about anyway?  They're not working?  They're complicated?  They break down a lot?  They're loud?  Hmmmmmm....sounds a lot like the prototype to me... 

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[robert3985]

A few years ago (about 7) I decided to discipline myself and select an era and location to model.  In doing so, about half of my roster of cars and engines went up for sale.  Among those engines that went on sale at eBay were my Overland N-scale 8500 GTEL Turbines, each of which sold for $1,500 on 3-day "Buy-it-nows"  I doubt that'd happen today, because in many respects, the SCALETRAINS Turbine is a MUCH better model than the N-scale Overland brass models.

So, if ya got one or a few Overland N-scale GTELs, you're not gonna get what you paid for 'em, or what they were worth a few years ago.

I really loved the way they ran however...excellent running models, and they'd easily pull the longest allowable train on my layout....30 cars and a caboose since my passing sidings are 9', 7" long.

However, they weren't near perfect.  The grabs on the nose were cast-on (not separate), the details on the roofs were marginal, the roofwalks were waaaay substandard (gross cast walkways instead of fine, etched details), the end detailing was marginal at best and the Armour Yellow was too orange and too thick.

I was always planning on stripping mine, grinding off the bad cast-on details, having several frets of walkways and vent gratings made, and repainting them correctly with Scalecoat II.

When I ran my friend Nate Goodman's new SCALETRAINS DCC Turbines on his layout in DC last week, I was able to look really closely at the models, and my only three gripes about their detailing is (1) The couplers suck, (2) The cab windows aren't quite "there" yet, and (3) The grabs stick out a bit too far.  I can easily fix (1) and (2), and I can live with (3).

What I absolutely LOVED was the wealth of detailing on these models, which far overshadow the Overland brass models, particularly in the see-through quality of the lead unit, the fine, see-through, etched walkways (WOW!), then end detailing on both units and the tender too, the fine pad-printing, the excellent paint job and the sharp corners on all the boxy details.  SUPERB...and I forgot to mention the turbine blades down inside the exhaust...!!!

As far as running is concerned, they ran really good on Nate's layout after deciding that if I cranked the throttle up to "6" and just waited for them to take off, they'd start to creep, and then I'd adjust the throttle settings as they slowly accelerated on up to cruising speed....very nice for a DC, sound-equipped DCC locomotive!!!

Overall, I am more than willing to put up with having to fine-tune their running mechanisms if I have to for the level of detail and accuracy these models have, and am sorely tempted to get one just because of its many superlative qualities...even though it'd be a shelf-queen most of the time.

Many of you probably don't know what it was like when limited-run brass locomotives were the best you could buy in N-scale.  Frankly, you never knew what you'd get with these hand-built models...and most of them in my experience, demanded fine-tuning before they'd run reliably or smoothly.  I remember having to break them in for several hours before they'd quiet up and run smoothly from a crawl to mainline speed....and they cost three or four or eight times what plastic engines were going for...sometimes even more.

If SCALETRAINS decides to manufacture either one of the two earlier UP Gas Turbines, I will be ordering several of each...even if they don't have split frames (which would preclude that lovely see-through body) and have wipers on the wheels and wires running all over inside.  Just doesn't matter to me, even if I have to take some time and tune them up, no matter what they cost.

Just sayin'

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[peteski]

As for their crude, primitive mechanisms...they work okay.  I believe they were manufactured by Ajin, or Samhongsa...so the "wiper technology" is not Chinese...but either Korean or Japanese.

LOL Bob, the wipers rubbing the wheels design goes back to the very first N scale models made by Rapido - way before any N scale brass was even dreamed of.  So, you could say that it is German technology. 

But this is not about who first came up with the electric pickup wipers for model trains. I'm sure those were in use way before N scale was even in the picture.  This is about being puzzled why this ancient (high-friction) technology is still used on brand new designs.  It has been surpassed by the Kato-style low friction truck design with pointed axles and metal bearing-cups in the sideframes. I'm sure you are very familiar with it - it is vastly superior to the older design. Not only this new design is simpler and easier to assemble, it gives superior performance (very free rolling with good electric pickup).

If the new design had more parts or was difficult or time-consuming to assemble I would understand if the designers kept on using the old design. But that is not the case and I don't understand why the inferior design keeps on being used over and over again.

[C855B]

... the first set sounds like a coffee grinder now - both units, just awful. I don't know how much of that was due to my disassembly or whether it's endemic. ...

In the interest of completeness and fairness, this was solved last night. It was my decoder programming (ESU LokPilot v4.0) which led to a mismatch in speed curves. The "coffee grinder" was wheel slip in the B at low-middle speeds. Fixed by resetting the decoders to factory, followed by road number assignment and momentum settings to 0.

They still "waddle" slightly and have moments of unevenness. I reached my fool-around-with limit and have recruited knowledgeable help.

[MichaelWinicki]

LOL Bob, the wipers rubbing the wheels design goes back to the very first N scale models made by Rapido - way before any N scale brass was even dreamed of.  So, you could say that it is German technology. 

But this is not about who first came up with the electric pickup wipers for model trains. I'm sure those were in use way before N scale was even in the picture.  This is about being puzzled why this ancient (high-friction) technology is still used on brand new designs.  It has been surpassed by the Kato-style low friction truck design with pointed axles and metal bearing-cups in the sideframes. I'm sure you are very familiar with it - it is vastly superior to the older design. Not only this new design is simpler and easier to assemble, it gives superior performance (very free rolling with good electric pickup).

If the new design had more parts or was difficult or time-consuming to assemble I would understand if the designers kept on using the old design. But that is not the case and I don't understand why the inferior design keeps on being used over and over again.

Agreed.

As you know Hornby did the same on their "new" loco's and that was disappointing.

[peteski]

Agreed.

As you know Hornby did the same on their "new" loco's and that was disappointing.

Yes, I voiced my disappointment in the Hornby/Arnold S1 review I posted earlier (and the U-boats are on the same boat).

[C855B]

... Even before I took the shell off I noticed that front of the the shell wasn't fully seating down on the chassis.  I tried pressing it down but it wouldn't budge. The sides (around the cab doors were also noticeable spread away from the chassis).  After some detective work I figured out that the problem was the speaker enclosure and a bundle of wires routed over the top of it.  There isn't enough clearance over the top of the chassis so the wires hit the inside the roof of the shell preventing it from fully seating over the chassis. ...

Installing decoders in my second pair tonight, I also experienced the shell not seating, so much so that the coupler box was angled enough to result in mismatch and spontaneous uncoupling between the A and B. Turns out there is not enough clearance for the wires between the shell and the screws holding down the main board. In fact, the wires on my "factory fresh" unit showed definite signs of being pinched between the screws and the shell. I tacked-down the wires with a spot of CA so they would stay put during reassembly and out of the way of the screw heads. Fixed.

[peteski]

Installing decoders in my second pair tonight, I also experienced the shell not seating, so much so that the coupler box was angled enough to result in mismatch and spontaneous uncoupling between the A and B. Turns out there is not enough clearance for the wires between the shell and the screws holding down the main board. In fact, the wires on my "factory fresh" unit showed definite signs of being pinched between the screws and the shell. I tacked-down the wires with a spot of CA so they would stay put during reassembly and out of the way of the screw heads. Fixed.

Hm, so there is more than one place where the wires get pinched preventing the shell from fully seating?  Mine was over the speaker box and yous was over the main board?  Hmmm . . .  I also had a similar problem with the front coupler.

[u18b]

Mike sent me his Turbine set.... and it is a real puzzler.

Sorry, no photos, but I do have a report.

The B unit has a wobble.   I have not dived into that one yet.   My gut hunch is that some of that detail on trucks or shell is hitting each other on curves.
But the B unit runs great.

When you put A and B near each other, it is clear the B unit runs faster.  Obviously they could be speed matched in DCC, but that would hide the fact that the A unit has a bind in it.

Based on my reading on the nightmare of those couplers, the FIRST thing I did was use micro-drops of superglue to glue the coupler box lid to the coupler box.  When dry, removed the coupler screws, and couplers almost fell out- intact.  No problem.

Shell lifted off.

YIKES- what a mess of wires.  If this was mine, I'd replace all those wire solder joints with TCS micro-plugs and sockets.

I removed the cab interior, the sound box. and the circuit board.  For the purposes of problem solving, I removed the decoder and installed the Analog board.

I removed the motor cover lid.

Somehow THIS is the problem-  as Mike surmised.

When you take the lid OFF and run the loco, it runs almost perfectly smooth.  It now runs equal with the B units.

I removed the drive shafts to the worms.  Placed the unit on the track, replaced the lid- but did NOT screw it down.

Motor runs fine.

Now screw the lid down tight.  Motor won't run at all.

Loosen screws, runs fine.

Now run the motor and GRADUALLY tighten the screws.  You can hear scraping at some point.

Now, pull the lid and inspect the underside.  No scrape marks.

Pull the motor, no visible scrape marks below the motor.

The flywheels themselves show only ONE mark.  On the front flywheels, then is one line that is only partially there (does not go all the way around).


So I'll continue to work on this as I have some time.  But it is a puzzler.   The puzzler part is my inability to find scrape marks.  When I know something is scraping somewhere.

And one problem that I have to be careful about is that I don't think the screws are long enough- at least the back one.  So with all this manipulation, there is a chance that a screw may strip out.  If that happens, it's not the end of the world.   The frame could pretty easily be drilled and tapped for a bigger (and longer) screw.

The reason this is crucial is because if I were to shim the lid, the screws would not be long enough for a shim much thicker than a piece of paper.

[u18b]

OK.  Persistence paid off.  I found the problem.   

First, let's look at the underside of the lid.

You can see a cut-out/contour for the curvature of the flywheels and motor.
And as you can see, there are no scratch marks.

I suspected the area marked with red arrow.  These are the holes for the sound box screws.  You can see that there is a kind of burr that could be ground down if we wanted.   I figured this could possibly be rubbing the edge of the front flywheel.... but once again, there is no place where the paint is worn off.





But finally keeping up this testing produced some scrapes.   They were on the BOTTOM side.
In this shot you can see a couple of problems.



There are mold lines that stick up (blue arrows).    For the most part, there has been no rubbing, but you can see that there is shiny metal in ONE spot- marked by yellow arrow.   So that mold line is hitting the rear flywheel.

But the worst of the friction is the plastic motor saddle itself (red arrow).
You can see where the metal motor poles are scraping the plastic when the lid is tightened down.

You will notice that the motor saddle is NOT contoured for the curvature of the motor the way the lid is.

So if the manufacturer is reading this thread, y'all need to modify this piece-- and if you do, these locomotives will perform better.

I'll check with Mike before I do anything, but the solution will be to take a motor tool and recess or totally remove material where the marks are from the spinning motor poles.

[C855B]

Thank you, Ron. Great work. Ron and I have been going back and forth trying to trace this issue, which just didn't make a lot of sense. It basically took a near-complete teardown.

Another problem (...I'll handle...) discovered is inconsistent gauging on wheelsets. I'm running another pair, and discovered the tender was picking at a couple of turnouts. Four out of the six axles were too narrow. Loco wheels are OK-ish, falling in the NMRA gauge but slightly narrow. Overall, something else to look for.

While the detail on the turbines is outstanding, as would be expected it is fragile. Ron found a couple of bits I broke in handling during troubleshooting. Hopefully I can appeal to the guys at ScaleTrains for replacement parts, at least they have a complete parts breakdown with exploded diagram in the manual; I already have the matching paint. I also broke one stirrup on the second set's B while buttoning-up after installing the decoder, wedging it between the body and the chassis when replacing the shell. Non-fatal, CA is holding fine.

This is not your typical Atlas or Kato. Lots 'n' lots o' fiddly-bits to manage, that's for sure.

[RBrodzinsky]

Mike & Ron - great detective work?   Question -- have you noticed any problem with the backup light in the tender?  Two of us, running our units at a show last week, both noticed flaky behavior of the backup light. Lots of flickering, periods of steady on and even longer periods of steady off.

[C855B]

Mike & Ron - great detective work?   Question -- have you noticed any problem with the backup light in the tender?  Two of us, running our units at a show last week, both noticed flaky behavior of the backup light. Lots of flickering, periods of steady on and even longer periods of steady off.

Thanks. Yes, I've seen this too and should be addressing it shortly. I suspect it is purely a dirty wheels issue, that there is manufacturing residue messing with contact exacerbated by the tender's light weight. We've seen this on other models with blackened wheels. With the gauging issue resolved I should have a chance to look at this before a meeting today, so stand by.

One thing I do know... don't take the tender apart on a whim looking for something. If you study the parts diagram you'll realize it's not your everyday shell-on-a-frame design. With all that exposed fragile detail like the top handrails I wasn't all that comfortable handling it while re-gauging the wheelsets.