The Turbines Are Coming! The Turbines Are Coming!

[u18b]

Mike & Ron - great detective work?   Question -- have you noticed any problem with the backup light in the tender?  Two of us, running our units at a show last week, both noticed flaky behavior of the backup light. Lots of flickering, periods of steady on and even longer periods of steady off.

No.  I have not been using the Tender at all.

Unfortunately.... somehow in all this work, the headlight on the A unit stopped working.  Have no idea what happened.  I even swapped out decoders and still nothing.  Factor reset the decoders too.

I'll do more testing.

[u18b]

Well, at least the scraping has been fixed.

I milled out the scratched area on the motor saddle.

Could not figure out how to get the saddle out and was afraid of breaking something....

So I taped up everything in order to keep plastic particles out of the trucks.

Used a motor tool with a round bit.

Reassembled, and the loco runs wonderfully now.
The set is cruising on the Plywood Plains as I write.

[C855B]

I solved the tender headlight issue. As suspected, dirty wheels. Very dirty wheels. I sprayed contact cleaner (non-residue/non-lubricating) on a single sheet of paper towel, laid the wetted towel across the tracks, and manually ran the tender across the wetted area making several passes. I couldn't (...well, I could...) believe the brown streaks left on the towel. I did the back-and-forth routine three times, moving the towel slightly each time, until there were no more streaks.

Perfect performance now. Not a glitch.

[peteski]

Excellent troubleshooting Mike and Ron!  That will save me some troubleshooting time for sure!
While I have not fully dove into my set yet, this confirms what I saw in mine just by taking the shell off the A unit:  While the model looks very nice and is super-detailed on the outside, on the inside it is a mechanical and electrical nighmare. Maybe that is a bit of an exaggeration, but the bottom line is that a $500 model should not need any futzing around with to get it running right. Especially a brand new model designed from scratch.  We already have poor-running brass models for that. 

 I don't know how the H0 version is, but Scale Trains engineers (and assemblers also) don't seem to  know how to consistently make a good-running N scale model. To me it seems that the engineers who designed this model could learn a lot from studying Kato and even Atlas designs. 

[u18b]

Here is what I did.

1.  Added a tiny amount of superglue to the coupler box lid at the cut-out joints.




2.  Removed the cab interior screws (red) and the interior, the sound box screws and the sound box (blue), and the circuit board screws (yellow).




3.  Removed the motor cover lid.  There are only two screws.  Left front (purple arrow) and right rear.




4.  Twist and somehow get the lid out from all those wires.



5.  Move the circuit board out of the way.  Take a flat blade screwdriver and lift one end.  It just pops up.  The worms shaft will disconnect.




6.  Remove the worm shaft.  Repeat on the other side.  Motor will be totally loose now.



7.  Now with everything loose and moved out of the way, you can get to the motor saddle.
I placed tape all around to keep particles from going outside of the motor saddle.




8.  Using a motor tool with a round bit, I created a depression in the plastic.   This would provide clearance for the spinning motor poles.

[Mark W]

A quick side track update. (Edit:, ok not so quick after all TL;DR below)  I stole Scale Train's tech guy away for about an hour at the Rocky Mountain Train Show to investigate my unit's pulling problems.  The show gave our layout a nice quiet room away from all the noisy kids stuff, so we had a great time running sound on the layout!  After about 20 minutes of just playing we finally got down to business.   

I let him know the last status of the decoders, turning off BEMF right after doing a reset. I should mention, while turning off BEMF greatly improved things a few weeks ago, this week, it's as if the decoder was again reset and either BEMF was back on, or whatever issue it was returned, the unit couldn't make it up the grade with just a hand full of cars.

So down to business; First issues was the A and B unit tugging back and forth as they went down the track.  He did the automatic BEMF calibration on the B unit only and that solved that problem right up.  I guess either that procedure re-enabled BEMF, or it's true that BEMF was somehow re-enabled on it's own after what I thought was a success a few weeks ago.

Next, the pulling.  On level track, we hooked up 45 cars and the Turbine didn't flinch, could have probably added 40 more cars.  Then into the mountain and... stall, though I pointed out how they weren't actually stalled; the wheels were not spinning in place and the train was very very slowly still moving forward, about 15 seconds per tie.  On the second attempt, after slowing I began uncoupled cars until it finally took off again.  Had to cut it down to 24 cars.  We gave it one more run, this time opening up the throttle entering the mountain, and same result; couldn't make the hill until we cut down to 24 cars. 

At this point, it had been about 40 minutes and his conclusion was it just must be what it is, and we'll have to stage a few Geeps at the bottom of the mountain for helper service.  But that comment sparked an idea.  I hooked up two Atlas GP-38's to our 45 car train, a pair of models that are undeniably smaller and lighter than the two Turbine units, and undeniably have much less pulling ability as well.  I headed to the mountain at 30% throttle.  The GP-38s glided right past the spot the Turbines were slowing.  After a few more feet, they began to slow and at the crest they juuussst barely made it, then wheels spinning.  So they too stalled, but that was 45 cars, not 24, and even then, a small nudge was all it took and the two GP-38's then pulled the rest of the train over the crest. 

Seeing that, there was no denying that something is in fact wrong with the BEMF of my Turbine.  We exchanged cards and he said he'll get in touch with ESU and see what he can find out.  Other than that, he admitted, really
the only thing I can do is play around with the BEMF settings myself.  He assured me that I can't 'brick' it by doing so, a decoder reset would fix it if something went wrong.

So, not quite the result I was hoping for, but there's still a chance for some good news to come.  In the mean time, I guess I get to study up and teach myself everything there is to know about BEMF.   

TL;DR - Scale Trains witnessed my Turbine unable to pull 24 cars up a 1.6% grade.  After seeing a pair of GP-38's pull 45 cars up the same grade, they'll get in touch with ESU to see what they know.  Otherwise it's up to me to continue experimenting with BEMF settings myself.


As far as product design, I asked about the Tier 4 GEVO in N scale. All he could say was "GE did grant us a license for the Tier 4 GEVO in HO and N Scale".
I made it as clear as I could that inside bearing trucks and wiper pickups just cannot be maintained over time, then showed him a 25 year old Kato that still runs perfect (this thing has well over 2,000 hours on it!).  I practically begged him to follow suit and use pointed axles and cups instead of wipers.  He said he'll pass that on to their product designer, so fingers crossed. 

[peteski]

I made it as clear as I could that inside bearing trucks and wiper pickups just cannot be maintained over time, then showed him a 25 year old Kato that still runs perfect (this thing has well over 2,000 hours on it!).  I practically begged him to follow suit and use pointed axles and cups instead of wipers.  He said he'll pass that on to their product designer, so fingers crossed.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart!    I'm also glad that you were able to demonstrate the problem to their tech guy, and prove to him that other locos had no problems pulling that train.

[u18b]

I modified the motor saddle in the B unit also since it was also scraping-- Mike (or the factory) had loosened the screws so it ran better.  But when the screws to the lid were tightened, the same problem happened.

But it was easier to fix.
The B unit has no fuel tank.

On the bottom of the frame on the B unit you can see two screws.  These screws hold the motor saddle in place.  And it is much cleaner to take the motor tool to the saddle when it is out of the loco.




So, I'm glad I didn't force the saddle out on the A unit or I would have broken it.  I assume the fuel tank covers the screws on the A unit.   But there is so much fine detail on the fuel tank, you sure want to be careful when removing it.


I also fixed the LED in the headlight.  I determined the LED was burned out.

Don't know how it happened, but I did discover a problem on Mike's A unit.  The headlight is on a hand-trimmed circuit board.
Well, as you can see, the solder pad on the left side comes right up to the edge.  This is a potential shorting spot with the frame.  Don't know if that's what happened, but since I was working on this spot, I fixed it.




I filed the solder pad back away from the edge (black wire side).  And then installed a new SMD LED since I had some on hand.



Now installed, you can see it is better electrically isolated from the frame.

[u18b]

Oh.  One more thing.

The motor lead wires broke about 3 times while I was doing all this work.

No big deal.  I re-soldered them.

But just know that they are VERY fragile.

[C855B]

I modified the motor saddle in the B unit also since it was also scraping-- Mike (or the factory) had loosened the screws so it ran better.  But when the screws to the lid were tightened, the same problem happened. ...

It was me. I accidentally pulled off one of the trucks on the first attempt at removing the shell, and fixing requires removing that lid.

Interesting how that saddle is such a headache.

Yes, I noticed the hand-trimmed board and its lack of precision, for all intents just jammed into that slot. It works, I guess... until it doesn't work.

I had similar issues with the wires. Ron and I both noticed cold joints. The soldering work - given there was so much of it - is less than stellar.

[peteski]

Hand-trimmed factory-installed circuit boards That is really poor assembly job.    I'm not going to mention other brands of N scale models where such a thing would be unacceptable. 

[atsf3751]

I have read every message in this thread and I am not going to rehash all the previous comments, not needed because you have read them all. but I will add my own comments from my own experience with this engine.

I have three of them bought from two dealers at different times, #5, #14 and #27. These engines are hand made with both the A and B having a hundred or more detail parts added by hand so there are bound to be differences in the application of parts. Steps not being perfectly lined up would be considered normal wear and tear on the real engines so I don't see that as a problem. I did have one horn that was not straight on one A unit but careful use of needle nose pliers solved that. The fuel tank extension on #27 unit A was not perfectly level but from normal viewing distance of 3-4 feet that was not obvious until pointing it out, no problem with the other two A's because they do not have that extension. Each loco was slightly different from the other in either the B or the A.

First time I ran them I ran each engine separately to see how they ran and I did notice a difference in speed between the A and B on two sets. Resetting CV54 solved that completely. I did notice an additional benefit from doing that, the top speed was reduced a little. I did a little modification to each set. I installed a short shank MT True Scale coupler on the front of the A. One of my personal foibles is that all full carbody engines have too large a gap between the A and the B, five scale feet is not prototypically correct but 30" is. I replaced the couplers between the A and B with a drawbar so that they are correct. I painted the trucks with a black wash to tone them down.

I did hear some mechanical noise from the engines but I ran each one on my test track which is a circle of track about a mile long for around two hours and that quieted them down. now for the layout test. The layout has a ruling grade of 2% and I was able to pull 50 cars up that grade, the engine struggled some when the entire train was on the grade but it did not stop or slip. Our club layout is open to the public six days a week and the following weekend was my day to run. I ran one of these engine sets for seven hours non stop. It has the Scale Trains coupler between the B and the tender and at the rear of the tender, I had no problems of any kind with the engine. Admittedly I only put 40 cars plus a caboose behind it because I didn't want it to slow down on the grade.

Bottom line is that I am very pleased with the engine. None of my engines experienced any of the problems reported in this thread. Next comes weathering and these engines are very dirty, especially the rear of the B and the tender.

[atsf3751]

I did see I forgot to clearly mention one thing. All three came with factory sound.

[peteski]

Good to hear that your models are running well and you are happy with them. Judging by how many you bought, you spend a large chunk of change!  It is good to hear from modelers who are perfectly happy with their Big Blows and that they run fine for you.

While I agree that with all the individually hand-applied details there will be some differences, in few examples (at least to few people discussing them here)  seems that the problems were a bit more than what would be considered acceptable (quality-control-wise).   Making excuses such as "steps get bent on the 1:1 units so it is ok on the factory-fresh model" seems pretty lame to me.  Sorry - that is how I feel. If I paid $500 for a set of locos, I expect perfection (or close to it).

We (some modelers in this thread with higher expectations) have also discovered some design problems which shouldn't be there.  Things like motor armature rubbing against its cradle, or wire routing which does not allow the shell to fully seat over the chassis are design oversights or assembly problems.  But as long as you are happy with your models then that's all that is important.  What this also seems to indicate that the assembly quality is not consistent (which is not a good thing).

[atsf3751]

It is human nature to hear more from folks that had a problem with something than you will hear from the folks that had no problems. That is the way it is and will always be that way. There really is nothing wrong with that because solutions come from that. How many Big Blows have issues? Can't tell from the small percentage of folks here. If they sold 2,000 of them and 12 have problems, that is a pretty low percentage.

I read all the messages here and it has not been from hundreds of modelers just a small group. I don't see complaints from the other lists I belong to but I am only on a few lists. I will freely admit I am not a rivet counter, i subscribe to the point of view of does it look good from normal viewing distance then it is good enough for me. But I do have my own issues, I will never run a passenger train without diaphragms between the cars, nor will they be five scale feet apart. All E's, F's and similar engines will be 30" apart and have diaphragms also. Whenever I can, I will also rework steam engine tenders so that they are close coupled. This goes back to looking good enough for me.

I read the many comments about the truck design. Okay, perhaps they could have done better but I have no problem with mine (and I certainly did not try to take them apart). If you don't like what they did, let them know (and suggest how to do better) so they can do better next time. This was their first locomotive in HO and N and was quite a risk for them to do, much better than having another F unit. IMHO they raised the bar for other manufacturers.