DC (not DCC) operating system

[unittraincoal]

I have already tested helpers in DC on another layout in multiple configurations....they ran flawless.  One trick as seen in Nscale railroading is to disconnect a worm gear to one end of the engine.

There will be no cossovers....it will be a dog-bone with staging at each end... No return loops....

 That is too bad about the throttles at Aristacraft going away, perhaps I will use a MRC option with a plug in....  If I decide to move to DCC at a later date I will but I am not going to do that at this time.

[SkipGear]

There really aren't any wireless DC throttles available right now. MRC does not make them anymore, not even a wired cab. Aristo is going, going gone. There may be something out there to build your own or use multiple ports along the layout to plug in as you move with the train but in most cases, the train will have to stop while you change positions.

Large scale stuff is going to radio control and battery power so they don't have a need for the DC throttles. There unfortunately is just not a market left.

[unittraincoal]

I believe MRC's 9900 is going to offer a walk around throttle but it hasn't been released yet. It sure would be nice if it was wireless

[SkipGear]

I believe MRC's 9900 is going to offer a walk around throttle but it hasn't been released yet. It sure would be nice if it was wireless

That is almost as much as a wireless DCC system when its all said and done. At the price of the handheld add on, I'm pretty sure it will be wired. It is similar in price to the unit it is replacing.

[nkalanaga]

Peteski:  Yes, a "buss" is a kiss.  However, growing up, I frequently saw main power conductors labeled "buss", probably because the electrical folks didn't know the difference, or didn't want it confused with a transit vehicle.  So, I tend to spell it that way, and I've noticed that some others do as well.

As for "cheap speaker wire", mine was cheap, from Radio Shack, years ago.  It was also 18 gauge, so looked like it should be adequate.  It wasn't...  And, yes, Romex cable is stiff, but for a bus it doesn't need to be flexible.  Mine is stapled to the benchwork supports, around the wall, and stays out of the way very nicely.  Plus, there's no danger of someone accidentally breaking the wire by getting tangle in it while working under the layout.  However, the main reason I used it was that we had most of a roll left over after some work on our house!  I probably wouldn't have thought of it otherwise.

[robert3985]

Good heavens, I hope not. DCC is, at best, a transition technology--and one that's becoming relatively ever more expensive.

Why does a DCC base station cost more than a low-end PC? Why does a wireless handheld throttle cost more than a dual-core tablet? Because DCC is a technological cul-de-sac. The entire model railroad industry probably has a smaller budget than what's spent on wireless internet R&D each year. Bluetooth receivers fit inside a USB port. Google's Chromecast fits a wireless HD streaming-media player in a form factor comparable to some sound decoders.

Power through the rails, control through the air. Using Internet-standard technologies, please, not a 1980s technology that's first cousin to the Lionel Railscope. The choice between DC and DCC is like the choice between riding a horse or an ox while everyone else drives nuclear-powered DeLoreans. 

The handwriting is on the wall.  Whatever anybody "hopes", DCC is becoming more and more prevalent and will dominate soon if it already isn't.

Yup, the technology for DCC is behind the times, but so is EVERYTHING you buy.  It's all obsolete as soon as it hits the market a far as technology is concerned.

I used to worry about it, but keeping up with computer technology became an expensive and frustrating experience.  Nowadays, as long as my PC's and laptops will run my software and my OS continues to be supported, I'm okay with not-the-latest-and-greatest.

Train control, on the other hand, doesn't require all that high-zoot stuff.  Who cares if your train doesn't respond a couple of microseconds as soon as something with newer electronic protocols would make it respond?  What makes a huge difference in WOW, doesn't make a hill of crap in train control.

Personally, I think the real low technology culprit is the whole electrified track thing.  I'm looking forward to seeing N and Z scale trains with on board batteries, full fidelity sound and complete and immediate control using radio or WiFi (not IR), along with all the bells and whistles available on top-of-the-line DCC systems today.  The new batteries will be extremely powerful (3D Matrix) and quickly (in a few seconds) re-charged, and will be part of operating schemes as trains would be able to be operated only until the "fuel" runs out (and/or water) and the new throttles will display a cab instrument display so the operator will be able to see fuel, water and sand levels, as well as other features depending on just how detailed you want to go. 

Furthermore, the ultra powerful but tiny batteries will allow electronic uncoupling couplers in each railroad car, which would be recharged on sections of track as the train pulls them over those sections.  The engines would also recharge if you just wanted to run trains and not worry about running out of "fuel" or "water".

However, this is ALL vaporware and blue-skying at the moment.  Right now, today, I can run DCC, and it works pretty well, along with acceptable sound, consisting, speed matching, train detection, block power protection, signaling, computer running, BEMF, all sorts of lighting effects, inertia, starting voltages, running profiles...and I can go on and on.

Today, it's DCC.  When you design and produce something better, then I'll buy it.  Until then, it's Digitrax for me...and I've already scaled the steep learning curve. 

[peteski]

Peteski:  Yes, a "buss" is a kiss.  However, growing up, I frequently saw main power conductors labeled "buss", probably because the electrical folks didn't know the difference, or didn't want it confused with a transit vehicle.  So, I tend to spell it that way, and I've noticed that some others do as well.

As for "cheap speaker wire", mine was cheap, from Radio Shack, years ago.  It was also 18 gauge, so looked like it should be adequate.  It wasn't...  And, yes, Romex cable is stiff, but for a bus it doesn't need to be flexible.  Mine is stapled to the benchwork supports, around the wall, and stays out of the way very nicely.  Plus, there's no danger of someone accidentally breaking the wire by getting tangle in it while working under the layout.  However, the main reason I used it was that we had most of a roll left over after some work on our house!  I probably wouldn't have thought of it otherwise.

I worked as a computer tech in the 80s. The computer circuit boards I used to troubleshoot had lots of buses on them (data, address, DMA. I/O, etc. buses) but we all called those "bus" (single "s").  I guess we had a different experience.

As far as Romex goes, I absolutely agree that it is a valid solution for a model railroad wiring.

unittraincoal:  unfortunately I think that trying to find a state of the art wireless DC throttle will not be an easy task.  Whether or not DCC is the way of the future, it is here now, and it seems to be where all the new products development takes place.

[randgust]

I'll give you one question to consider which has effectively made the choice for me.....

1)  Do you envision ever having more than two people operate on the layout at the same time? 

Corollary:  If your room is too small for more than two operators, the natural advantages of DCC start to fade.   

Corollary:  Single track mains with passing sidings require a lot of toggle-flipping, again a DCC advantage even with two.

I'm still DC and happy with it.   However I helped wire a 6-operator, double-track, basement-sized DC monster all with rotary switches back in the 80's, and also helped convert it over to DCC in the 90's, and what a difference.  We took enough copper wire out of there to impact scrap prices worldwide - literally GARBAGE CANS of it.   

Mine is really a small layout (8; x 5'6"), two operator, mostly double-track main line so that each operator gets their own track and is assigned either east or west.  Not particularly complicated, not a whole lot of toggle-flipping going on with two people.   One single track block has a toggle that gets attention, that's all.

[Scottl]

I'm a lone operator and probably always will be.  The advantage of having multiple trains sitting on the track and minimal wiring is a tremendous benefit of DCC. 

[mmagliaro]

Randy, now you lost me.
A single track main with passing sidings shouldn't require any toggle flipping at all.   Assuming the turnouts
are power-routing, you can run a train into a siding, flip the turnout, and it is off, so another train can pass it on the main.
Passing and storage/stub sidings seem to me the easiest thing to manage in a DC system, because the turnouts
manage it for you.

Running 2 or more trains, or wanting to park multiple trains in a single siding or along a single stretch of main -
that's where you start needing block control, more wiring, and where DCC would really pay off.

So, unittraincoal, you have a simple dogbone with no reverse loops and no crossovers.  Your helper experience
is good and it works for you.    So it sounds like you have thought all that through and it would work.
Wireless DC throttles are your preference.  I will dig around to see if such a thing can be had. 
As Tony suggested,  a handheld that you can plug in at various points in the layout might be a more
realistic option.   I don't agree that it means you would have to stop your train.  All the  plug/unplug handhelds
I've ever seen keep the train running the way it is when you unplug. 

I assume that you do not want to build your own, correct?  There are plenty of circuits available on the internet,
and a DC throttle is not very complicated.  A handful of parts and some nice hardware (buttons, knobs, etc)
is all you need.  So if you are reasonably good with a soldering iron,  (good enough to solder transistors, diodes,
and resistors to some tag strips)  you might consider this.     Advantages to building your own are that
you can do it pretty cheaply, you can make as many as you need, and if one ever fails, you can fix it yourself
without ever worrying about some manufacturer "discontinuing" it.

Check out Ken Stapleton's "Varipulse" throttles on the internet.
He makes a memory walk-around unit that might fill your need well.  Since it's "memory", I assume
it is the type where you can unplug it, walk to another jack, plug it back in, and maintain the
running train's speed and direction without interruption.

[rsn48]

I will be a lone operator about 95% of the time with two reversing loops that will be set up for continuous running, auto reversers with auto throws.  Like you there will times when I just want to sit in the chair and drink to slight excess and enjoy a train running.  But I also want a train continuously running while I switch just to make the layout feel busier.

And its possible I might be like you with decoders, I'd rather have a root canal than wire a decoder.  What I have suggested to others who have vowed never to go DCC (and they all have) is to pay to get your decoders done, maybe 5 a year, in ten years you have 50 engines decoded (you won't end up decoding your junkier engines).

Here's a local conversation I had with "John."  "So John, why don't you go DCC?"  I can't afford the conversion and all the decoders I'll need."

"John, how much money roughly have you shelled out for all your motive power, including Brass."  Answer: Big Money.
"How much have you shelled out for your rolling stock?" Answer: Big Money.
"And how much did you shell out for your layout including wiring, track and turnouts, wood, etc?"  Answer: Big Money.
"So John having quality around you is important, why are you nickle and diming your layout operating system?"

My suggestions are:

1.  Consider purchasing used
2.  If you are worried about interfasing with the system, a legitimate concern, purchase the digitrax computer hook up "stuff" (PR3XTRA SoundFX USB Decoder Programmer - sounds ominous I know) and download Decoder Pro (free) and go to this tutorial (free) and you should be good to go:   http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/mrht_decoderpro.  The Decoder Pro program simplifies your life, uses language that is in english (less techie talk, a foreign language) and makes a system like Digitrax much easier to use.  Forget about using throttles for programming, that's for techie geeks.
3.  One you are using Decoder Pro, only use throttles for dummies, like the DT UT4R.  http://www.digitrax.com/products/throttles/ut4r/

 

[mmagliaro]

Ken Stapleton's Varipulse products:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/kstapleton3/Index.html
(I checked with him.  All his products are current and available).

Also:
http://thegmlenterprises.com/id18.html

[Kev1340]

Great to see everyone chipping in with why the OP would be better off going with DCC 

With the type of layout suggested,  basic twin controller sound ideal. I swear by Gaugemaster products, but I've no idea if they are available outside the UK, though they do ship overseas.

Wiring isn't going to much more complex with DC, if you aree running feeders to EVERY section of track, which in my opinion isn't necessary anyway, then it's little extra work to add in a few extra wires to switches!

Another benefit of DC that I have never seen mentioned is that you can almost totally remove the necessity of track cleaning, my most hated chore, by simply adding in a 'high-frequency track cleaner', also available from Gaugemaster. I've had one installed for fifteen years, and have only had to clean track or loco wheels twice in that time. Of course you can't use the HF cleaner with DCC.

On a lone operator layout, DCC offers little benefit, except to fit in with the 'in crowd', so why bother? (just my opinion of course  )

Cheers,

Kev

[robert3985]

Contrary to you DC guys who think because you're a "lone operator" DCC for you is overkill, one of the main reasons I went with DCC (other than I love sound) is because I mostly am a "lone operator", and I have plans to be able to automate mainline traffic, and run my Park City Local and Evanston Local, while the computer takes care of the big freights and the passenger traffic.

It's also one of the reasons I went with Digitrax and Loconet, because of a demo video several years ago at their site of an HO model railroader in England who had a very complicated layout in his attic, which was very cramped isle space wise, and only allowed three operators at a time, but his layout would run many more trains than that.  He did the same thing I was thinking of, running a lot of mainline stuff using the computer to control those trains, and his small crew ran and switched their trains and jobs, while the computer ran like 15 other trains.

Those of us who have bit the bullet and converted our layouts to DCC know what a HUGE difference and simplification it makes of even small things such as parking an engine, or switching from one mainline to another...or making up an engine consist at the yard without 0-5-0'ing anything.  It's kinda like, if you haven't experienced it and used it on your old familiar layout where you're used to all that toggle flipping and throttle switching, you really just don't quite get it until you run trains using DCC where all you do is align switches and move trains...much more like the prototype...without ANY power routing or throttle changing whatsoever.  Then the light bulb comes on over your head and you say, "NOW I get it!"

That's probably why we encourage buying DCC instead of buying DC.  It's not that much more expensive and may actually be LESS expensive because of the simplified wiring. With Digitrax and Lenz, you can still run your analog/DC engines on address "0" (just don't park 'em on a live track for more than a minute or two) so if you've got a favorite consist you haven't got around to DCCizing yet, you can still run it...without any decoders.

Yup, I was strictly a DC man for 30+ years, but now that I've done my due diligence and converted over, I have not one teeny iota of a regret other than asking myself regularly "What took you so long???" as I operate my sound-equipped trains with a big you-know-what eating grin on my face... 

[DKS]

Does it count if some of us have actually tried DCC and went, "nope"? Don't get me wrong; I "get it" and I fully appreciate its advantages. There simply aren't any advantages for me. As for "LESS expensive because of the simplified wiring", I sense just a whiff of meadow muffin here... I can buy an awful lot of wire and toggles for the cost of a DCC base station and a bunch of decoders. And as for sound, that's a matter of taste; not all of us get big you-know-what eating grins from the crappy noise N scale locos make...

Oh, and do you advise "just don't park 'em on a live track for more than a minute or two" because of the supposed heating effect of the DCC signal on a DC motor? I've parked a variety of different non-equipped locos on live DCC track for hours on end, and they hardly got even slightly warm. I must conclude it's a myth. Either that, or I'm not doing it right--I suppose I must learn how to property damage motors.

"That's probably why we encourage buying DCC instead of buying DC." Who's this "we"? I'm not trying to turn anyone away from DCC... just trying to keep the hype in check.