DC (not DCC) operating system

[unittraincoal]

Anyone have any suggestions for an operating system for a DC layout? The mainline run will be roughly 180 feet.........

[nkalanaga]

Depends on what you plan on running.  If it's one train at a time, a power pack and feeders will do the job, and no more complicated than DCC.  If you want multiple trains, and operators, cab control isn't electrically complicated, but you'll need to determine the block lengths and gaps, which won't always be the same as the required electrical gaps.  If there are a lot of turnouts you can have several electrical blocks in one control block. 

Then there are the various "automated" control systems, from the 1950's rotary relays to computerized cab assignment. 

My advice would be to find one of the many books on the subject, if any are still in print. 

[robert3985]

I don't know what's currently available in DC, as I gave it up four years ago and tossed my hand-made throttles into a box which resides in my garage.  One of the local clubs here, the members of which are my good train-friends, is having problems with their radio DC system and is finally getting around to seriously contemplating DCC...even if one prominent member is continuously kicking and screaming about it. 

So, I'm not going to say anything about your choice to not use DCC as I'm sure you have a lot of reasons you think that's what you should do.

However, having learned over the years that wiring your layout properly is important, I'll give you a few small bits of advice about your wiring.

Advice Bit #1: Put a 22ga solid copper feeder on each and every piece of rail somewhere close to the middle of it and never (NEVER) rely on nickel silver rail joiners (soldered or not) to carry current.

Advice Bit #2: Use quality wire for everything.  That means at least 14 ga. Low-Ox, High Purity, many-strands Black/Red Zip speaker wire for your main busses.  Shop for it online if you want to get a good deal.  Don't buy that cheap lamp cord or that outdoor, low-voltage brown wire that's designed to buried.  It's trash and you'll be sorry you used it.

Advice Bit #3: Document EVERYTHING and label everything.  At some time, you're going to have to do some repairs or additions.  Having a record of everything is ESSENTIAL.

Advice Bit #4: Put identifiers on your wiring.  Either color coded or written.  Especially with DC, it's going to get complicated and confusing (as opposed to DCC, or if you're just running a circle of track), so don't skimp on the lables.

That's about it.

Good luck! 

 

[Rossford Yard]

Not wanting to really restart the old DC vs DCC debate, but do have to ask why? If you are just starting the layout, the wiring will be easier, perhaps offsetting the cost of decoders, unless you are one of those (like me) hundreds of locos kinda guy.

I would recommend you take the plunge with a starter DCC system that is easy.  MRC is really easy to learn, for example.  On the other hand, if you are set on DC, MRC has always also been the most reliable and most likely to stay in business DC power pack provider, with simply static throttles, and also some walk around systems.  Just not sure what's out there.  Seems like I read they just came out with another improvement....

[peteski]

Not wanting to really restart the old DC vs DCC debate, but do have to ask why?

Well, it is posts just like this which restart this debate (not you specifically).    In this day and age where N scale DCC is quite mature and relatively affordable, seasoned modelers just can't help to ask why would someone want to specifically start with a DC operated layout.

As far as hints for DC wiring go, Robert provided some good advice, but the "high quality copper" is just a bit much for me.  He sounds like one of those fringe audiophiles who use solid-gold audio connectors and $5000 tube-based audio amplifiers.

Come on, a conductor is a conductor.  A 16 ga. lamp zip cord and some esoteric oxygen-free copper super-duper twisted pair Teflon-insulated wire both are very good conductors of electricity.  But a 16 ga. zip cord is more than adequate for providing power to a $70 N scale locomotive.   We are powering a small electric motor and a light bulb. Even if the free-electron generated noise (or whatever other off-the-wall parameter we comparing) is slightly higher in the zip cord, that will not make a difference here.  It is not like we are using this wire to precisely measure some micro-Volt values in a very important electronic experiment.  Even if there is some extremely miniscule difference in resistance between those wire types (which I don't doubt or dispute), it will be so small that it will not result in any appreciable difference in controlling that N scale locomotive.

My recommendation is to use plain old lamp (zip) cord.  Or just individual wires.  Unless the layout is really huge, and you'll be running lash-ups of 7 or 8 locomotives per train, 16 ga. will be just fine. After all, in DC, your wiring only needs to supply power to one train at a time (unlike DCC where the power bus supplies power to all the locomotives in that power district).  And N scale models only consume maximum of about quarter of an Amp. while operating (usually much less).

But I agree that a solid construction, lots of track feeders and ease of wire identification (color coding and labels) are a vital part of the layout design.  That applies to both DC an DCC layouts.  Things eventually will go wrong, and clear wiring identification makes troubleshooting so much easier and less frustrating.

[nkalanaga]

Another option for the main busses is house wiring cable.  I have a roll of the white/black/bare in a white sheath style, with 12 gauge wire.  The buss doesn't really need the flexibility of stranded wire, and the solid stuff is easier to strip and solder taps to, as you can peel the insulation off without cutting the individual strands.  No need to run separate sections of the buss between terminal blocks, just peel a short piece, wrap and solder the tap, and tape it well.

I'll agree that cheap speaker wire doesn't work for busses.  I tried it, and mine is a lot less than 180 ft.  By the far end the voltage drop was enough that a dead short wouldn't blow the breaker on a 1 amp power pack.  Made for some nice slow running, but not the safest thing to have.

Peteski:  I'm with you that electrical noise isn't a factor on a DC layout.  DCC, maybe, but not on DC.  And if noise IS a problem, it's more likely to be from the motors, or outside interference picked up as radio or induction, not from the composition of wire.  I'm assuming that the "180 ft" is a more-or-less straight line, with the buss running from one end to the other, so would recommend at least 14 and preferably 12 gauge..  If the track is folded on itself, or otherwise compacted, and the buss length is considerably shorter, then 16 ga. is probably adequate, and a lot cheaper.

[mmagliaro]

unittraincoal:
I think your question is too vague, and will beget pages and pages of debate, which will not
be of any help to you.

If I may ask, can you provide more information about how this layout looks, how you envision operating it, and what kind
of control, switching, and other features you have in mind?

For starters:

1. Do you envision switching, or just roundy-round?
2. Running more than one train at a time?  (This is probably the most significant thing to know)
3. Will you have long passing sidings, or long stretches of mainline where you may want to park
multiple trains, and be able to shut them off in blocks of that stretch of track?

Those will just get the ball rolling. 

The trackplan would help too.   One could easily set up a track plan that has a single-track main with yards and sidings
such that the power routing of the turnouts is all you need to fully control the motion of the trains (i.e. no
block switches at all).   That's probably the simplest of all setups.  But if you want to run more than one
train at a time, you'll need some block selection mechanism.

There are lots of good books, sure.  But if you want useful info from the forum, I think you need to describe your situation
in more detail.

[Rossford Yard]

Petski,

Yeah, I know!  Couldn't help myself.

I just took a look at the MRC website, (http://www.modelrectifier.com/train-controls/dc-power-tech4.asp) and it appears the DC selection is limited (three models, one out of stock) It also appears that they have taken away the hand held controller option, which would be important to me on a layout with 180 ft of mainline.  They are up to Tech 7 (I think my first pack as a kid was Tech II) but it sounds like most of its upgrades are energy efficiency, not performance.  (Not that their performance was ever bad)

So my first question would be do you want slow speed performance, and hand helds for switching.  I don't know what else is out there in DC, but if you want hand helds, you might have to go to EBay or stores for an older model that has it.  They are out there, and I think MRC would continue to service them.

Other than that, I look forward to hearing what other brands are out there.

[peteski]

Another option for the main busses is house wiring cable.  I have a roll of the white/black/bare in a white sheath style, with 12 gauge wire.  The buss doesn't really need the flexibility of stranded wire, and the solid stuff is easier to strip and solder taps to, as you can peel the insulation off without cutting the individual strands.  No need to run separate sections of the buss between terminal blocks, just peel a short piece, wrap and solder the tap, and tape it well.

I'll agree that cheap speaker wire doesn't work for busses.  I tried it, and mine is a lot less than 180 ft.  By the far end the voltage drop was enough that a dead short wouldn't blow the breaker on a 1 amp power pack.  Made for some nice slow running, but not the safest thing to have.

Peteski:  I'm with you that electrical noise isn't a factor on a DC layout.  DCC, maybe, but not on DC.  And if noise IS a problem, it's more likely to be from the motors, or outside interference picked up as radio or induction, not from the composition of wire.  I'm assuming that the "180 ft" is a more-or-less straight line, with the buss running from one end to the other, so would recommend at least 14 and preferably 12 gauge..  If the track is folded on itself, or otherwise compacted, and the buss length is considerably shorter, then 16 ga. is probably adequate, and a lot cheaper.

I think that "cheap speaker wire" needs a better definition: It is really all about the gauge of the wire.  If the cheap speaker wire is 24 or 26 gauge then its resistance over long runs will affect the current delivered to the model. By the same token, will also limit short-circuit current, preventing a circuit breaker from tripping.  But if there is a copper 14 or 12 gauge cheap speaker wire available, then it will be quite adequate as a power bus for an N scale layout.

I also agree that house wiring (Romex) cable (12 or 14 gauge) will work well but it is rather stiff to work with.

And here is something that bugs me:  Please look up the definitions.  "Bus" is the arrangement of electric conductors we are talking about here.  "Buss" is a ... kiss. Really!    Yes, it is also a brand name of fuses.

[kalbert]

unittraincoal:
I think your question is too vague, and will beget pages and pages of debate, which will not
be of any help to you.

If I may ask, can you provide more information about how this layout looks, how you envision operating it, and what kind
of control, switching, and other features you have in mind?

For starters:

1. Do you envision switching, or just roundy-round?
2. Running more than one train at a time?  (This is probably the most significant thing to know)
3. Will you have long passing sidings, or long stretches of mainline where you may want to park
multiple trains, and be able to shut them off in blocks of that stretch of track?

Those will just get the ball rolling. 

The trackplan would help too.   One could easily set up a track plan that has a single-track main with yards and sidings
such that the power routing of the turnouts is all you need to fully control the motion of the trains (i.e. no
block switches at all).   That's probably the simplest of all setups.  But if you want to run more than one
train at a time, you'll need some block selection mechanism.

There are lots of good books, sure.  But if you want useful info from the forum, I think you need to describe your situation
in more detail.

This! OP's post is vague and open ended and will only stir the pot unless we see some clarification on what "operation" means.

"operation" is a broad term. It can mean DCC or DC. It can mean car cards and way bills. It can mean tags. It can mean switch lists. It can mean multiple crew operation with dedicated dispatcher and road crew roles. It can mean block and signal CTC, or warrants.

Tweet more about what you're trying to do and you'll get better responses.

[robert3985]

Peteski and everybody else,

I suggested the high-purity/low-ox/many wires/zip cord because I got a deal online that was actually cheaper than that cheap low-voltage stuff available at Lowe's or THD. 

The other reason to suggest it is that there's a good chance the OP will eventually go with DCC as it becomes SOP for manufacturers to include decoders in every new engine they design and market...and he'd be really happy he went with the good, non-signal-dropping busses along with feeders on every piece of rail.

My experience with the lamp cord, low-voltage lighting stuff you bury is the same as many...engines slowing to a crawl, circuit breakers not working...and solder joints gone bad because of the low cleanliness of the manufacturing process with the cheap stuff, which, when you strip it, isn't bright, but already brown.

Wouldn't want to curse anybody with some of the electrical mistakes I've made over the past 30 or so years! 

[Zox]

DCC as it becomes SOP for manufacturers to include decoders in every new engine they design and market...

Good heavens, I hope not. DCC is, at best, a transition technology--and one that's becoming relatively ever more expensive.

Why does a DCC base station cost more than a low-end PC? Why does a wireless handheld throttle cost more than a dual-core tablet? Because DCC is a technological cul-de-sac. The entire model railroad industry probably has a smaller budget than what's spent on wireless internet R&D each year. Bluetooth receivers fit inside a USB port. Google's Chromecast fits a wireless HD streaming-media player in a form factor comparable to some sound decoders.

Power through the rails, control through the air. Using Internet-standard technologies, please, not a 1980s technology that's first cousin to the Lionel Railscope. The choice between DC and DCC is like the choice between riding a horse or an ox while everyone else drives nuclear-powered DeLoreans. 

[Kisatchie]

...The choice between DC and DCC is like the choice between riding a horse or an ox while everyone else drives nuclear-powered DeLoreans. 

Hmm... where are all the
DeLoreans today...?

[unittraincoal]

I have a lot of locomotives and no desire to change them all over to DCC. I will wire it for future DCC incase I change my mind at a later date.  The mainline will be a long dog-bone making for a "double track" in the "visible" 70  Foot of mainline.  The rest of the main will be hidden in return loops in another room with staging. Trains will be able to operate continuously thru the dog-bone or point to point staging. It will be a mountain railroad with grades and helpers, but the helpers will operate the same as Mike Danneman does on his DC Moffat Road. Most trains on my layout will have helpers entrained at all times. Exceptions will be downgrade trains operating from stage to stage. There will also be a branch line to a mine that will be operated separately. The only place any helpers will be visually added is trains coming off the branch.

 I plan to use Aristocraft (unless I find something better) wireless throttles.... Will only need two since there will only be one train on the mainline and one on the branch at any given time.  Operations are not a priority for me.  I am a professional railroader and would much rather kick back with a beer and "roll-bye" trains thru the scenery. 

So I guess my question is does anyone make a better wireless throttle for DC than Aristocraft? and what would be the best brand of power source?.....

Oh I forgot to Mention the double track main will be  Utah Rwy Junction to Kyunne.... The branch line will be Utah Railways mainline over Gordon Creek Trestle...

Hope this explains my plans a bit better.....

[SkipGear]

Unless you already have the Aristo throttles, don't. The company is closing at the end of the year unless something has changed. There will be no more product or support in the future. Because of this, when our Aristo throttles die in our Ntrak club, we may end up going all DCC.

http://www.modelretailer.com/en/The%20Industry/Industry%20News/2013/10/Aristo%20CraftPolks%20to%20close%20doors%20at%20years%20end.aspx

If you are just planning on continuous running, with no crossovers in the main then DC is fine. If the return loops come back to create a double track main in the visible area, then you will inevitably want/need cross overs and there is where DCC will make life much simpler. You can wire the double track main as one block and then use the returns as your reversing sections and have it all automatic so you can just set back and watch trains while maintaining the availability to create passing areas on the double track.

Simple decoders are $20 each. A DCC system that will run this can be had for $150-200 easily. Wiring will be so much simpler that setting up multiple cabs and the associated wiring required to select between the two. You are also talking about using helpers, unless you are planning on using all the same brand loco, speed differences between the brands will cause havoc. DCC can solve that.

The ultimate decision is up to you but I don't think one way is cheaper than the other. It just depends on where you want to spend your time and money.