Weathering with pan pastels per MR article by T. Koester

[rogergperkins]

?

[wazzou]

Its called Classic TRW Thread Drift.

I guess I don't understand what all the hand wringing is about.  I think Dave Foxx summed it up pretty well. 
Everyone would like their boxcars to look like something Ed or Tom or MrKluke did, however some probably just want to knock off the factory shine and this is the audience I'm sure this article has in mind.  Not everyone has the time and/or interest in being the Rembrandt of weathering, or scratchbuilding or decoder installation or Resin Casting...I mean the list goes on and on.  Some people probably just want to run trains that don't look like shiny plastic.
This reminds me of the rust decal discussion of a couple of weeks ago.  It's not for everyone, but it doesn't have to be either...

[kalbert]

I think that it's important to remember who the audience for Koester's MR article is: beginners and those who are hesitant to try weathering (like colorblind me!).  Those of you who gave the article a thumbs down are not the audience.  You guys have proven your talents for weathering and modeling in general, and, clearly, you are beyond the informational and educational value of this article.  However, not all of us are as talented or own an airbrush.  And, some of us just need to see how easy it really is before we jump in.

I don't believe that Mr. Koester was trying to race the clock, but, instead, he was merely showing that with minimal efforts and time, you can weather your fleet.  The stopwatch was gimmicky, perhaps, but it was a way to show in a magazine the actual elapsed time of his efforts.

As for his technique, I thinks it's perfectly reasonable for dirtying up runners.  Contest quality, no, but it wasn't meant to be.  As for color, I'll leave that to you non-colorblind individuals.

DFF

Well said sir, very well said.


As for the OP's original request, I suspect that no matter the medium, any non-paint weathering technique is going to require some kind of fixative, there's just no way for a dry or greasy powder to adhere and stick on it's own without something to coat and protect it or make it stick. Even heavily diluted paint will not adhere well if the agents are spread so thin as to not be able to make a good bond. However, intentionally rubbing vs casual handling are two different things. I can't say as I've never used the product, but I'd think it would survive casual handling or it would not have been used in the article. Intentional rubbing, like cleaning track, would certainly wipe it of I would think. Aside from track and wheels, we don't usually rub anything?

[mmagliaro]

I read the article with a great deal of interest because one of the methods I use on my structures for coloration (and weathering) is a technique I call "chalk painting" where I apply the color to a flat white base just like most of us apply weathering. I have ordered a set of basic earth colors that I will try out and report back here what I have found.

I too am a little leery of applying powder to a locomotive (especially steam). I can't imagine that not having some kind of negative effect on the loco's performance.

I use weathering powders on steam locos all the time.  Unless you get a lot of it inside in the gears or really
overdo it, I can't see it causing any troubles.  It never has for me.   I don't see how pan pastels would be any different.
I started using powders about 3-4 engines ago, and they are my new best friend for weathering steam locos.
They can go on the drivers, over the valve gear, just about anywhere.   It's not really going to stay on the moving/sliding
surfaces anyway.  In fact, it's easier to weather steam with powders than with an airbrush.  With an airbrush,
you have to be really careful not to get any paint into moving joints or on sliding surfaces, because if it sets up
in there, it will cause problems.

I need to track down this issue of MR and see what all the fuss is about.

In response to the original post and his problem,

My experience, with powders at least, is that if the surface is naturally
rough, you can weather it and the stuff holds really well.   Flat finishes, flat paint, or metal or plastic that
has at least been lightly sanded all seem to hold on to powdered weathering very well.  But slippery Unitrack, I bet not.
There's just no tooth to grab the dry colors.

[DKS]

I did applications to a PAINTED structure kit. Just now I was able to wipe off pigment with a face tissue.
That is why I am asking why the article implies NO FIXATIVE was needed.

Structures and locomotives are quite different in their basic nature. Structures have large flat areas; locos do not. Thus the surfaces of structures are more easily handled--it's rather hard to wipe the drivers of a steamer with facial tissue. You simply cannot take a procedure intended for model locomotives and expect it to work on any other object you'd like to weather. As I've already said multiple times, even on a painted surface the bonding of most powdered pigments is tenuous at best. My advice is to simply apply fixative after weathering; that should solve your problem. As was noted previously,

...intentionally rubbing vs casual handling are two different things.

Most of the responses here are TOTALLY off topic.

Deal. 

[ntrakia]

I think many are missing the point of this article:  it is not to show how fast the weathering can be done but that weathering can be accomplished in a reasonable amount of time--7 minutes not being the ultimate goal.  also I shows that reasonable weathering can be accomplished by ordinary modelers and is not solely the realm of the air-brush Rembrandts.  the article also provides fodder for the mr bashers--glad he didn't use a micro-trains car or we could have witnessed duel bashing.

[davefoxx]

One advantage of powdered pigments: it's reversible.  If you don't like it, wipe it off.  You can even leave it on for hours, days, or weeks while you decide if you like it.  Once you nail it, then set it with a clear overcoat.

By the way, does anyone know if Pan Pastels fade when hit with a clear coat the way that regular chalks do?

DFF

[DKS]

One advantage of powdered pigments: it's reversible.  If you don't like it, wipe it off.  You can even leave it on for hours, days, or weeks while you decide if you like it.  Once you nail it, then set it with a clear overcoat.

By the way, does anyone know if Pan Pastels fade when hit with a clear coat the way that regular chalks do?

DFF

Powdered pigment weathering is not always reversible; some pigments will actually stain the paint and become permanent, particularly lighter-colored paints. (Ask me how I know this...) As for a color shift when hit with fixative, that'll happen with any powdered medium. The degree of shift may vary, so testing on a scrap is recommended.

[davefoxx]

Powdered pigment weathering is not always reversible; some pigments will actually stain the paint and become permanent, particularly lighter-colored paints.

Duly noted.  Thanks for the heads up.

[Chris333]

Some of the sticky powders scare me because I'm not sure they can be removed if I go overboard. I think these powders are made close to the way makeup is.

[Dave V]

I was driving through Denver today so I stopped by Caboose Hobbies and decided to check out this article, expecting the worst.

I dunno.  Tony's engine looks fine to me, actually.  Cody's 2-8-0, on the other hand...doesn't do a thing for me.  I don't really get the stopwatch thing, but I know when I'm doing weathering with an airbrush and washes it takes me a lot longer than that.  But I don't have a massive fleet.

Although I only read MR sporadically these days, I've seen a big push toward weathering techniques lately.  Good on them for pushing DIY weathering.  Not every technique yields the same results, and some work better on certain applications than others.

Whatever works...!

[rogergperkins]

I asked,
"What step am I missing. This article said no fixative needed."
I am still waiting for an answer to that question.  I also wrote directly to Mr. Koester.

[Dave V]

As was stated earlier, this is classic Railwire thread drift.  It's okay.  It happens.

We're allowed to talk about other aspects of the question the OP didn't intend.

I think your question was in fact answered, i.e., some fixative is needed if the piece is to be handled.

[DKS]

My original post asked a question regarding what I did incorrectly when I tried these pan pastels.
The article said that a fixative was not needed.  I found that the pan pastels rubbed off the following day
from a previously painted structure and some Kato Unitrack I attempted to weather with it.

I was attempting to determine if I had done something incorrectly or missed a step.
I WAS NOT criticizing Tony Koester article in any way.  I WAS NOT focused on the 7 minute aspect.
I WAS NOT criticizing or bashing MR.

I asked,
"What step am I missing. This article said no fixative needed."
I am still waiting for an answer to that question.  I also wrote directly to Mr. Koester.

What part of this post do you not comprehend?

Structures and locomotives are quite different in their basic nature. Structures have large flat areas; locos do not. Thus the surfaces of structures are more easily handled--it's rather hard to wipe the drivers of a steamer with facial tissue. You simply cannot take a procedure intended for model locomotives and expect it to work on any other object you'd like to weather. As I've already said multiple times, even on a painted surface the bonding of most powdered pigments is tenuous at best. My advice is to simply apply fixative after weathering; that should solve your problem.

You have been attempting to apply a technique on objects other than what was defined in the original article. You cannot expect to be able to apply any given technique to all circumstances. It has been noted (multiple times) that weathering powders do not work on raw plastic (such as Unitrack). It has been noted that fixative is required on objects that are handled. And it has been noted that deliberately wiping models with a tissue is vastly different than casual handling. You are having difficulty not because the article is wrong, or the pastels are misbehaving, or you are applying them incorrectly; it is because the techniques in the article apply solely to those items shown in the article. The technique relies on the fact that steam locomotives are handled differently than, say, structures, and thus the fixative step can be skipped when it might otherwise be required. Furthermore, applying fixative to a steam locomotive would give rise to a number of issues, such as the need to either mask the wheels or clean them afterwards. It is not a general-purpose weathering article.

Bottom line: The step you are missing is to apply fixative for models that are handled more or differently than steam locomotives (which is seldom and carefully). Additionally, any unpainted plastic you intend to weather will require a clear flat coat beforehand.

If you still feel that your question has not been answered (adequately and repeatedly), then I suggest you look elsewhere for a solution to your problem. Perhaps Mr. Koester will have a satisfactory answer for you.

As a side note, complaining about off-topic posts is like complaining about the weather. Railwire permits off-topic posts since the alternative is constantly moderating members or editing/censoring posts, which tends to piss people off. Additionally, thread drift can at times be beneficial as it can bring alternative points to light that might otherwise be suppressed.

[rogergperkins]

David, I am delighted I am giving you something to do, i.e. lecture me about a very simple question I asked.
The article said no fixative needed. 
As I said, I was asking if I did something incorrectly.
Everyone who offered an answer is refuting the claim "that no fixative is needed."