Should for all n-scale locomotives come with DCC installed?

[eja]

Also, in my opinion, you need to approach sound on a scale basis. 

Major or minor ? What key ?

[avel]

Eja, 

I think they should all come with DCC, not sound, just a DCC decoder.

[Wardie]

As others have pointed out there is a lot of range out there in what decoders support for features and effects. I DO NOT think all locomotives should come decoder equipped, I do wish they were all built for drop-in conversion.
I do have a DCC system and am slowly converting my fleet to DCC, but I still prefer to by my locomotives DC and choose which decoder I equip them with. It has been a while since I looked at the specs, but if memory serves me correctly a bunch of the Bachmann decoders only support 28 speed steps, and I have made sure on the locomotives I have converted to by 128 speed step decoders. Just my preference, but I don't want to see prices increased to just include a very basic decoder, which is then a difficult conversion, or requires me to solder and unsolder wiring inside the locomotive.

[TiVoPrince]

Model 
trains are often percieved as an expensive hobby.  Raising the Atlas/Athearn/Bachmann/Kato starter sets another $50.00 at retail might just put a bullet in newcomers, but would the economy of scale making no DC boards help somewhat?.  Starter sets for R/C and other hobbies tend to seek a low price point where cheap dooes not act quite as much a barrier to enjoyment as it does in model railroading.

As a hobby we attempt to have a big inclusive tent allowing every level participating.  The effort/skill needed for DCC represents a hurdle not all are willing to jump over.  Effects that could translate to DC like functioning ditch lights might draw in some new recruits.  Wondering how that cost/benefit analysis spreadsheet at the manufacturing level looks?  Component costs aren't likely to be going down anytime soon, because so many are shared with the cell phone industry...

[jdcolombo]

I think sound is something of an acquired taste.  Having had sound in my steam locos for three years, I can't imagine not having it - watching a silent steamer just seems wrong to me.

With diesels, the drone of the prime mover gets old fast, but having the horn and bell adds realism.  I agree with earlier posts that sound is most effective when used in accordance with prototype rules in an operating session on a point-to-point layout.   On our N-Trak layout, even my steam locos get a bit annoying after a while (but never in an op session on my home layout).

As for whether all locos should come with dual-mode sound decoders, my answer would be no.  Many don't want DCC at all (still) and many more don't want sound.  People should have options.  The ideal situation would be for manufacturers to design their locos for a drop-in board that would either be DCC only or DCC with sound, including speaker.  Let the aftermarket take care of those things, because competition ups the performance and lowers the price.  Then I can buy a given loco for $80; decide myself whether I want DCC only (another $30 for a board) or DCC with sound ($80-100), and pick the aftermarket decoder that best suits my needs.  This does mean that the loco probably will be lighter than it otherwise could be (since one needs to provide space for the sound option), but most diesel operations are either done MU (where the small loss of weight won't matter anyway) or in switching, where you can compensate by adopting Atlas's "make the shell mostly metal" approach.

John C.

John C.

[DKS]

Should ... all n-scale locomotives come with DCC decoder installed?

No.

Two reasons:

1. It would increase the prices of many locomotives which are now already considered too costly to some people.

2. It would mean losing customers like me who do not want DCC.

[Mark5]

I think David pretty much summed up where I stand ...

But make 'em DCC ready.

Mark

[Scottl]

I would prefer to buy my own, for quality reasons.  Some DCC decoders have unimpressive reliability and compatibility.

[peteski]

Peteski,
1. you are trying to put words in my mouth by stating I want to run DC locomotives on DCC layout. This is not the case.
I would like to see all n-scale locomotives come with DCC decoders installed.
2. My question is why are manufacturers not adopting the practice of installing DCC decoders in all locomotive?
I did not raise any question about operating.  I gave examples simply to illustrate that some manufacturers do offer locomotive with what they call "dual mode."

Should for all n-scale locomotives come with DCC decoder installed?

Hmm...
I was responding to sizemore's post (right above my post) which was quoting the following statement from you:

I have Kato 2-8-2 locomotives without decoders installed.
    I have Atlas locomotives without decoders installed; they will not run for me using my NCE cab.
    They are not dual mode as I understand the term.

    Bachmann locomotives that are listed as dual mode are ones I could run with a power pack or with my NCE cab.

    What is the correct definition of dual mode in this context, if in fact I am not using it correctly? 
    Yes, locomotives with DCC decoders can be run in non-DCC mode.
    Locomotives without DCC decoders cannot run with my NCE cab as far as I can determine.

I was merely agreeing with sizemore's statement about misusing the "dual-mode" moniker.

[up1950s]

I have no use or money for DCC or sound .

I want traction and DC .

[timwatson]

I'll be the rebel here.

I LOVE DCC.

I'm a web developer geek who:
Loves operating my trains with my throttle app
... on my Kindle
... or iPad
... or iPhone and not paying for multiple power packs or multiple dcc throttles ... all with free software. 

I love NOT knowing CV numbers and simply using JMRI on my laptop to set some settings just like I had little apps on wheels.
I love that the wiring is SOOO much simpler with dcc. 1 power bus with 2 wires and feeders (no blocking etc.).

Whew, man I love DCC ...

To answer your initial question. I believe that DCC and the isolation of the motor is a prime reason locomotive manufacturers are late to the game here. They all are using older engineering methods that were prevalent before DCC. Even Kato (the penultimate steam manufacturer) is late to this game. That is the reason I believe manufacturers aren't playing in the space more as a defacto standard. It would mean changing something that people who have adopted DCC have been "working around for years". I believe it is happening now more than ever in the past however.

I can now get a DCC equipped, REALLY good running, steam locomotive for $55-$65 ... up til now - that's been previously unheard of. We're living in brave times. Some of you excellent modelers need to dip your digital toes (back) in ... the water is fine (much finer then ever before).

[djconway]

I have been in N scale since 1973 and DCC since 1996 so my answer may come as a bit of a shock.
NO DCC pre installed
NO Sound installed

Now a little explination-
Let me choose my decoder, I have several Atlas & Bachmann locos that came with pre installed decoderes, and they are over priced for the functions they deliver. Documentation of the functions and capabilities is severly lacking.
I have N scal sound locos and the sound quickly gets old and bothersome,  I've been to a club's open house where the 4 units (SD-60 HO Scale) dround out the 3 SD70's rolling by about 100yds away, and the club's were supposed to be in the next town.  The wow factor wares off after a few operating sessions where you can't hear yourself think.

[Bendtracker1]

I have been in N scale since 1973 and DCC since 1996 so my answer may come as a bit of a shock.
NO DCC pre installed
NO Sound installed

Now a little explination-
Let me choose my decoder, I have several Atlas & Bachmann locos that came with pre installed decoderes, and they are over priced for the functions they deliver. Documentation of the functions and capabilities is severly lacking.
I have N scal sound locos and the sound quickly gets old and bothersome,  I've been to a club's open house where the 4 units (SD-60 HO Scale) dround out the 3 SD70's rolling by about 100yds away, and the club's were supposed to be in the next town.  The wow factor wares off after a few operating sessions where you can't hear yourself think.

+1
I think decoders should be seen as an option.  Everyone have different tastes and preferences.
What works for me, may not work for you.

I got burned on some of the first Atlas equipped locos: SD60's and GP38's  I had one of each that was equipped with what was suppose to be a Lenz chip that didn't work out of the box. I sent the 38 back it to Atlas for repairs and they said it wasn't theirs and sent it back, when I got it back I tried to read the ship with no luck.  The one in the SD60 fried and melted the shell as soon as I applied power to it.  A friend had two more of the equipped SD60 that both had bad chips.  Since then I resolved myself to buy only DCC ready chassis and buy my own chips.

If and when the price becomes affordable to factory equip a loco with the same quality of chip as today's aftermarket chips, I might think about it.

But I still think they should be an option, at least that way it won't chase off any guys who are DC and want to stay that way.

[DKS]

Some of you excellent modelers need to dip your digital toes (back) in ... the water is fine (much finer then ever before).

Don't even think of accusing us DCers as Luddites. I have zero need for DCC; why should I be forced to pay for it when I run one or at most two locomotives on a small layout? Not only would I be forced to pay more, but it would add to the complexity of operating a small layout, instead of the reverse. I also don't like the fact that pulling power gets sacrificed for the sake of DCC. Not to mention that, as others have said, I want to choose my own if I should eventually opt for DCC.

I do not oppose DCC; it's a tremendous bit of technology with loads of advantages. But I do oppose making it a standard feature in every new loco. For myself, I want a throttle with two controls: direction and speed. And I want to be able to grab any random loco in my collection, drop it on the rails, and run it. Without having to do anything else, or set anything up in advance.

And before anyone accuses me of having no experience with DCC, I regularly operate a large layout at a friend's house that is fully DCC. I readily perceive all of the advantages it brings to this kind of setting, yet I still I don't like running his layout nearly as much as I did back before DCC was introduced.

[babbo_enzo]

Well, I hear some very good points here and I can agree to most of these:
- additional cost of decoders
- poor quality of RTR decoders ( usually a "custom" derived from a general pourpose decoder with more options? )
- Sound not completely compatible with DC
- etc...
I'm a DCC fan anyway and I agree also to "I think sound is something of an acquired taste.  Having had sound in my steam locos for three years, I can't imagine not having it - watching a silent steamer just seems wrong to me."
So, my 2 cents are devoted to have "really DCC Ready" models !
I really hate having to competely disassemble a loco and invent mechanical solutions suitable to the positioning of a decoder!