Should for all n-scale locomotives come with DCC installed?

[conrail98]

After operating on a number of HO layouts, I would say I want as much sound as possible on the layout, but need to make it realistic in its level. If I'm working in one town, I really shouldn't hear it too well in the nest. If you do do it and do operate, make it a part of your operations, i.e., run the bell going through a yard or during slow movement or blow the horn at all grade crossings and where else applicable, etc.. Doing that adds to the realistic operating potential of a layout,

Phil

[sizemore]

The replies on this forum fascinate me because of the diversity of points of view and they amuse me because of how far off track some are.
Here is the basis of my question. 
3. During the past several years very few n-scale locomotives were offered with dual mode, and thus if one wished to operate them DCC, they needed to
install a decoder or pay to have one installed.
Looking to the  future:
4. If the n-scale model railroad manufacturers all decided all new locomotives offered would be dual mode from the factory, would most current modelers want factory installed sound as an option at added cost?

I think you need to clarify what you mean by "DUAL MODE" I think you're using the terminology wrong, or you're the one that might be far off the track

Almost all decoders are DUAL-MODE, just because it is not explicitly advertised doesn't mean it does not support Dual Mode operation. For example lets take a look at Atlas, the decoders they use largely come from Lens DCC:

http://www.atlasrr.com/pdf/Atlas_N-Scale_Decoder_Applications.pdf

In the manual it shows they support DUAL MODE operation:

http://www.atlasrr.com/pdf/LE063XF%20Manual_Atlas.pdf

"Operates on conventional DC layouts; this feature maybe disabled by setting a CV."

To go further...DUAL-MODE is actually part of NMRA Standards as far back as 2006 and most likely earlier:

http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/standards_rps/RP-922%202006%20July%2025.pdf

Configuration for DUAL MODE is set through CV29, section 205 (Configuration Variable 29), also take a look at APPENDIX B where it identifies Analog (DC) Operation. So if a decoder is NMRA compliant, it 99% of the time will support DUAL MODE operation while not explicitly stated.

The S.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

My real experience with sound has come from a trio of experiences, each on other peoples layouts.

If you're using it to enhance operations, it's a great thing. Proper whistle signal protocol, bells, etc... all help serve the same purpose with the models that they do with the real thing. Also, steam with sound really makes you slow things down to a much more prototypical speed, because otherwise it sounds like you're running a shay.

However, when running in "display" mode, with it just endlessly looping, it gets annoying and toy like quickly.

That said, I really enjoyed the sound at Ken McCory's:

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[conrail98]

However, when running in "display" mode, with it just endlessly looping, it gets annoying and toy like quickly.

That's why I think volume control is so important. You should hear it in the scene your viewing but not when the train is on the other side of the room. Don't think we need to worry about that in N but I've definitely seen some HO layouts where that wasn't the case,

Phil

[rsn48]

I'm in the sound not being very believable from small speakers. camp.  I'm in the camp that feels that sound reduces the size of your layout, if I can here the sound 300 miles away, then it can't be 300 miles away.  I'm in the camp that says you can get tired of it all.  I'm in the camp that would use a surround sound type set up but currently find it pricey.

Having said that, when I am alone and running one unit, I wouldn't mind some sound, but the current state of sound with small speakers doesn't impress me.

[VonRyan]

I agree, a switcher might just be the right application of sound even for a small layout.  Especially if you observe proper etiquette such as sounding the bell and horn at appropriate times.

I'd still like someday to do a PRR H-class 2-8-0 kitbash with a Micro-Tsunami for use on the Lewistown local.  There'd be enough starts, stops, and direction changes to make it worth while...  and besides, I want to hear that screaming Banshee whistle!

That's why I like that the S-2 is being made with a factory installed sound decoder. It'll be great to operate my finally in-progress HCD layout with that much more prototypical realism that can be brought about with sound.

I have Kato 2-8-2 locomotives without decoders installed.
I have Atlas locomotives without decoders installed; they will not run for me using my NCE cab.
They are not dual mode as I understand the term.

Bachmann locomotives that are listed as dual mode are ones I could run with a power pack or with my NCE cab.

What is the correct definition of dual mode in this context, if in fact I am not using it correctly? 
Yes, locomotives with DCC decoders can be run in non-DCC mode.
Locomotives without DCC decoders cannot run with my NCE cab as far as I can determine.

If i'm remembering a certain article in MR correctly, NCE does not support the running of locomotives that do not have a decoder installed.
With Digitrax this can be done by using the address "00" (double-zero).
You are correct in saying that you locomotives without decoders are not Dual-Mode, this being because they do not have a decoder.
I'd check the manual for your NCE system to see if it supports "double-zero" running or whatever the NCE equivalent is for the ability to run locomotives that are strictly analog (DC), that is if the system supports such things. It may just be that you have to turn the option on, as with Digitrax the option is factory set as on, but can be turned off.

[railnerd]

If i'm remembering a certain article in MR correctly, NCE does not support the running of locomotives that do not have a decoder installed.
With Digitrax this can be done by using the address "00" (double-zero).

Correct, NCE doesn't supporting running an analog locomotive on an otherwise DCC layout.

Many non-Sound DCC decoders support running on an "DC" layout. Bit 2 of CV29 controls this. The early Soundtraxx decoders do not support "DC Mode", but the Tsunami does.

(apologies for the gibberish to the non-DCC folks)

-Dave

[pwnj]

I'm a DC-only person, but not because I have some sort of disdain for DCC, just because A) zero budget (and I mean zero), and B) I don't really see a need for my 1-operator (maybe two, but not often) small layout to have DCC.  Nevertheless, both of those aside, I wouldn't get sound.  Speakers that can fit in a locomotive (or even a dummy or box car) are not at all impressive (read that: THEY SUCK!).  Is it neat that your train can make noises roughly or reasonably timed to what it's actually doing? Of course it is.  But when it sounds like a string and two tin cans, it just ruins the experience for me.  Like if I was watching trains running on a DKS layout or something, I could seriously get lost in the realism of the scenery and details.  Add nasty sound and it just cheapens the whole thing.

Now, give me a stationary sound decoder running through some Magneplanar speakers powered by a pair of Crown power amps and you've got a winner. 

[DKS]

...I don't really see a need for my 1-operator (maybe two, but not often) small layout to have DCC.

http://1-160.blogspot.com/2007/10/dcc-is-not-for-me.html

...But when it sounds like a string and two tin cans, it just ruins the experience for me.  Like if I was watching trains running on a DKS layout or something, I could seriously get lost in the realism of the scenery and details.  Add nasty sound and it just cheapens the whole thing.

http://1-160.blogspot.com/2007/10/sound-off.html

Now, give me a stationary sound decoder running through some Magneplanar speakers powered by a pair of Crown power amps and you've got a winner. 

+1

[VonRyan]

...snip...
Now, give me a stationary sound decoder running through some Magneplanar speakers powered by a pair of Crown power amps and you've got a winner. 

Seen it done. It can be a good payback against some noisy neighbors as well as some deafening realism.
There is no doubt that it is cool when you run some DCC sound through an old Hi-Fi system and some speakers, very realistic sounding as well.

I personally don't see much issue with DCC-sound or the small speakers other than you don't get the whole-body feeling that you would get when standing next to the real thing. However, I do agree that in some instances it can be an annoyance, though mostly I seem to deal with it quite well.


-Cody F.

[conrail98]

Speakers that can fit in a locomotive (or even a dummy or box car) are not at all impressive (read that: THEY SUCK!). 

I keep seeing this statement (usually by people who only do DC) but honestly have never experienced it. Maybe it's the quality of the DCC decoders the guys whose layouts I go to regularly have put in their locomotives or the fact it's all HO versus N,

Phil

[DKS]

I keep seeing this statement (usually by people who only do DC) but honestly have never experienced it. Maybe it's the quality of the DCC decoders the guys whose layouts I go to regularly have put in their locomotives or the fact it's all HO versus N,

"Suck" is certainly a relative term. If the sound is modulated enough that it doesn't distort, then it's not as bad as when the speakers are overdriven to the point that a diesel thrum becomes a buzz and whistles become nails on a chalkboard. The former I can tolerate for a few minutes; the latter sends me from the room screaming. In either case, however, the sound that is possible by a <1" speaker is going to be limited in range no matter what, and that in and of itself renders it "toylike" in quality, which (for me) serves to destroy the realism of a model more quickly and completely than anything else.

It's one thing for a modeler to say that s/he likes sound; it's quite another for anyone to be able to claim it's even the slightest bit realistic. Time for a hearing test, if that be the case.

[sizemore]

    I have Kato 2-8-2 locomotives without decoders installed.
    I have Atlas locomotives without decoders installed; they will not run for me using my NCE cab.
    They are not dual mode as I understand the term.

    Bachmann locomotives that are listed as dual mode are ones I could run with a power pack or with my NCE cab.

    What is the correct definition of dual mode in this context, if in fact I am not using it correctly? 
    Yes, locomotives with DCC decoders can be run in non-DCC mode.
    Locomotives without DCC decoders cannot run with my NCE cab as far as I can determine.

The problem is not of the locomotive or decoder but the system you are using supports running non-DCC locomotives. In the context of the original question you had not mentioned the system, we were only presented with the locomotive with or without DCC (and DCC, with Sound). As VonRyan pointed out, in order for your locomotive to be "DUAL MODE", it would require a decoder installed or preinstalled from the factory. I think thats where most of the confusion lies.

The S.

[peteski]

I agree that it looks like Roger is confusing terminology.

"Dual-mode"  is a term which applies specifically to DCC decoders. It means that a DCC decoder will operate properly when used under DCC or the old fashioned DC power.  This has nothign to do with the DCC command station or the DCC boosters.

Roger wants to operate DC locomotives (without decoders) on DCC powered layouts.  That is totally different from what "dual-mode" means (in DCC terms).  This is something that the command station (not a decoder) would have to be capable of doing.  This option was popular on early DCC systems but it is  being phased out.  Why? I think the major reason is that it can heat up and damage the DC locomotive's motor and both front and rear headlights are always on. The other reason is that the decoders have become so small and inexpensive that there is no reason to run DC locos on a DCC-powered layouts.

[rogergperkins]

Peteski,
1. you are trying to put words in my mouth by stating I want to run DC locomotives on DCC layout. This is not the case.
I would like to see all n-scale locomotives come with DCC decoders installed.
2. My question is why are manufacturers not adopting the practice of installing DCC decoders in all locomotive?
I did not raise any question about operating.  I gave examples simply to illustrate that some manufacturers do offer locomotive with what they call "dual mode."

Should for all n-scale locomotives come with DCC decoder installed?