Just wondering

[bbussey]

I truly do not understand how this perceived "Pennsy bias" meme has developed.  It's not as if the road has been neglected in N over the past 40 years.

As stated before, it all boils down to economics.  The roads that sell best are going to get the most exposure.  Union Pacific and BNSF are still here.  Pennsylvania has been gone for two generations.  That said, the Pennsylvania was heavily represented in the earlier years of N scale and is still represented well in current times.  How many road-specific steam models have been mass-produced in N over the years?   There have been three Pennsy steam models, correct?  Has any road other than Union Pacific been as well represented?  Has any road been as well represented as Pennsy regarding all locomotives in general?  You can be disappointed that state of the art Pennsy steam isn't available.  But you have to be fair in your assessment.

[chuck geiger]

Ink:

I switched to N in 2006 and sold all of my HO empire. When I began amassing N product,
I figured out that if there are 10 available in HO, then there are 4 in N.  Using Walthers
Cornerstone as an example. For specific modeling like The PRR, it has to really be hard.
The unavailability of product can be handled if you search. For example, go through the
hobby shop on-line catalogs and EBAY for product the corner LHS doesn't carry or want
to be bothered with.

I understand you are narrow-focused on PRR, but your post is good for everyone, especially
during the holiday season when buyers are looking to get into the hobby for their sons.
Or for more HO to N converts. I was in a hobby shop in Tri Cities, WA several years ago
on a visit and it was stocked (HO) with one aisle for N. Kit bashing and scratch building or
finding an independent modeler with a great shop i.e. DKS could help with the needs.

[inkaneer]

Okay, let's assume that there is this untapped market of people who felt they were pushed, pulled, or in some way forced to go into HO rather than N scale due to the lack of product in N scale.   How big is this potential market?  How do we measure it?  Could an offering of a couple of Pennsy locomotives be sufficient to coax enough people away from HO to make a difference in what and how much is offered in N scale?   This is presuming people would buy more than just PRR locomotives.  Manufacturers of N scale track, switches, rolling stock, scenery items, etc. would all receive a shot of increased demand.  I have to think that a railroad with one of the biggest historical societies going would make an impact in such a scenario.  I would also have to think that while all manufacturers would benefit from the increased size of the N scale market not one of them is willing to take the risk.  It is more comfortable and all too easy to stay in your own back yard and not venture beyond the hedge.  Maybe HO is the way to go.

[Dave V]

Many roads used USRA or USRA-like designs.  Pennsy steam looked like no one else's and no one else's steam looked like Pennsy.  It'd be one thing if it was just changing out a cab or a bell, or even a tender.  Pennsy just looked so much different.

Minitrix's 3 PRR steamers make PRR steam possible in N; they're a big part of my fleet.  They are not even close to today's standards without a ton of work.  The difference is that some of us enjoy that work; others do not.

Once Kato popped the GG1 I knew I was in Pennsy N scale for good.  I think I've been able to do a credible 1950s PRR with what's available today.  That said, of course I wish there were ready to run steam at today's standard for PRR.  I recognize the market may not bear it, but for gosh sake there's no harm in making our desires known!

[DKS]

Okay, let's assume that there is this untapped market of people who felt they were pushed, pulled, or in some way forced to go into HO rather than N scale due to the lack of product in N scale.

I think the major flaw here is any perception of being "pushed," "pulled" or (worst of all) "forced." No one is forcing you to do anything; everything you do is by choice. The owners of X, Y and Z manufacturers are not sitting around suggesting, "We need to force Ink back into HO; let's cut all of our PRR N scale product plans." What we have in the way of product is based almost entirely on the old supply-and-demand principle. Oh, there are a few product lines from some shops that reflect their specific interests, but by and large the products we see the most of are the most popular. And, I rather doubt there are "untapped markets" substantial enough to warrant cutting a lot of new tooling.

If there's a shortage of something specific that might have a broad appeal, email the manufacturers, and get some like-minded friends to do the same so it carries a little weight. I don't think they're tolling the boards looking for grumbling such as this as a means to develop product ideas.

[inkaneer]

I truly do not understand how this perceived "Pennsy bias" meme has developed.  It's not as if the road has been neglected in N over the past 40 years.

As stated before, it all boils down to economics.  The roads that sell best are going to get the most exposure.  Union Pacific and BNSF are still here.  Pennsylvania has been gone for two generations.  That said, the Pennsylvania was heavily represented in the earlier years of N scale and is still represented well in current times.  How many road-specific steam models have been mass-produced in N over the years?   There have been three Pennsy steam models, correct?  Has any road other than Union Pacific been as well represented?  Has any road been as well represented as Pennsy regarding all locomotives in general?  You can be disappointed that state of the art Pennsy steam isn't available.  But you have to be fair in your assessment.

Well I didn't want this to spiral into another Pennsy rant but maybe it was inevitable.   In any event it does not boil down to economics.  The roads that sell best are the roads that are produced.  If you can't get product in a certain road how many people will model it?  People model what they can obtain.  That is what it boils down to.  Some people can't get what they want in N scale so they go to HO where what they want is available.   And yes while the PRR has been gone for 40+ years it still has one of the largest historical societies, if not the largest, going.  That translates into a lot of people interested in PRR and that is a market.  There have been only two real PRR steam models, the minitrx K4 4-6-2 and the B6 0-6-0.  The 2-10-0 was a mishmash affair where the cylinder exhaust pipes did not line up. It used a German locomotive running gear with a belpaire boiler.  It looked hideous.  Even the K4 was at best a 1960's design that since 1990 is no longer made but according to Spookshow remains in high demand today.  Why is that?  As for other roads a lot of them used USRA designs or copies of them and those are available in N scale.   PRR did not use USRA designs.  Their steam was uniquely PRR.

[DKS]

Their steam was uniquely PRR.

Which poses a particular problem for manufacturers trying to recoup tooling costs. Explains quite a lot.

[inkaneer]

I think the major flaw here is any perception of being "pushed," "pulled" or (worst of all) "forced." No one is forcing you to do anything; everything you do is by choice. The owners of X, Y and Z manufacturers are not sitting around suggesting, "We need to force Ink back into HO; let's cut all of our PRR N scale product plans." What we have in the way of product is based almost entirely on the old supply-and-demand principle. Oh, there are a few product lines from some shops that reflect their specific interests, but by and large the products we see the most of are the most popular. And, I rather doubt there are "untapped markets" substantial enough to warrant cutting a lot of new tooling.

If there's a shortage of something specific that might have a broad appeal, email the manufacturers, and get some like-minded friends to do the same so it carries a little weight. I don't think they're tolling the boards looking for grumbling such as this as a means to develop product ideas.

Dave, let's not argue over semantics.   If you want to believe that a person who wants to model in N scale because he gets to do more in the amont of space available but can't find what he wants in Nscale so he goes to HO and joins a club where more space is available and he can do what he wants is not in some way coerced or forced to make that decision then call it a persuasion if you like.  Call it anything you want.  It really doesn't matter what you call it.   This idea that manufacturers make what sells is a bunch of hooey.   Rather what sells is what manufacturers make.  We sell UP because we make UP.  In the beginning Ford sold only black cars because Ford only made black cars.  Did people want only black cars?  Ford's line that "you can have any color you want as long as it is black" sounds a lot like, "Pennsy does not sell".  That only goes to prove that even the industrial giants like Henry Ford, the man who gave us the assembly line, can have tunnel vision.  "Pennsy does not sell" is more tunnel vision.   I never saw an item of any kind that sold if it was not made.   Have you?

Which poses a particular problem for manufacturers trying to recoup tooling costs. Explains quite a lot.

[inkaneer]

Which poses a particular problem for manufacturers trying to recoup tooling costs. Explains quite a lot.

No it doesn't.  In fact it leaves a lot to be explained.   The PRR was called the standard RR of the World for good reason.   Things were standardized.   Pilot wheels were 33"  Trailing truck was KW with 50" wheels .  Drivers were 63 " for freight [L1, H 8,9,10 and I1] and 80" for passenger [K4, E6].   Same boiler on the L1 as the K4.  E6 had the same boiler as the H series consolidations.  Do you see what I am getting at?  The same drive mechanism could be used on the H series 2-8-0's as the L1 2-8-2's.  In actuality the L1's had an extra inch between drivers 2 and 3 than the H series but I doubt anyone will turn down a model for that one inch.  So economies are available to lower the cost of production because quite literally you do not have to reinvent the wheel or redesign it either.   The same drivers once designed can be used on the H,I and L series engines.  Same with the pilot truck and wheels.  The trailing truck on the L series is the same on the K4 and E6.  The pilot truck and wheels on the K4 is the same as the E6 and I believe the G series too.   The M series 4-8-2's had nonstandard drivers but the trailing and pilot trucks were standard. 

In short not every locomotive need be completely tooled anew.   With all the talk of tooling costs being tossed around as being prohibitive that ability to amortize existing tooling translates into cost savings.

[sirenwerks]

You need to consider the market's future too. It can be argued that N scale is more attuned to post-steam modelers, as N scale was born and came of age post-steam. Psychographically, the tendency is to model what you know, so if you weren't around steam when it was in its heyday you're likely to not model it. For several reasons, N scalers as a group likely trend younger than the larger scales, so steam modelers are going to be in the minority in the scale/customer base. No, I don't have hard numbers to back this up, but believe me when I say I'm usually right about these things.

[Dave V]

Bryan (Busséy),

Would ESM entertain any sort of Pennsy conversion boilers, cabs, and tenders for existing N scale mechanisms?  I really think the heavy 4-8-2 from Bachmann (with the 6-wheel tender trucks) could be made into an almost M1 with help from Shapeways.  I would do everything I could to help make that a reality.

Rather than shake our fists at the big guys, let's not forget our local RW manufacturer-friends, many of whom have already shown a strong Eastern focus.

It's frustrating to see just how much obscure Pennsy stuff is RTR in HO, but what I don't know is how well that stuff sells once released.  Either way, I think Pennsy steam will be a cottage industry until one of the big boys (Bachmann?) takes the plunge.  If that never happens, it won't surprise me.  But just remember, there's more to modeling than just opening a box.

[inkaneer]

You need to consider the market's future too. It can be argued that N scale is more attuned to post-steam modelers, as N scale was born and came of age post-steam. Psychographically, the tendency is to model what you know, so if you weren't around steam when it was in its heyday you're likely to not model it. For several reasons, N scalers as a group likely trend younger than the larger scales, so steam modelers are going to be in the minority in the scale/customer base. No, I don't have hard numbers to back this up, but believe me when I say I'm usually right about these things.

Maybe a case of selective memory perhaps?  Given the amount of steam locomotives produced since the Kato 2-8-2 I would have to say that the market is pretty good for steam.  Seems like all of the big guns of Nscale did steam recently.  Even Atlas did the Shay and imported the little Micro Ace steamer.  Athearn, Intermountain Bachmann, Model Power, Concor all did steam.  And like it or not people today still associate railroads with steam.   Go to any tourist line that operates steam they can give you hard numbers.   

[Scottl]

So let me get this right.  You all want specific (obscure to me, I might add) PRR steam models and you want Kato to put out more eastern diesel roads.  And you want all these special cabooses and box cars too?  I hear it's all available in HO 

[sirenwerks]

Maybe a case of selective memory perhaps?  Given the amount of steam locomotives produced since the Kato 2-8-2 I would have to say that the market is pretty good for steam.  Seems like all of the big guns of Nscale did steam recently.  Even Atlas did the Shay and imported the little Micro Ace steamer.  Athearn, Intermountain Bachmann, Model Power, Concor all did steam.  And like it or not people today still associate railroads with steam.   Go to any tourist line that operates steam they can give you hard numbers.

No, my memory's not selective at all. I stand by my claim, and you should take your selective glasses off when reading my post - steam modelers will be in the minority is what I said. Additionally, I would wager much sales is of the build and they will buy variety - as in, because a manufacture bit, someone will buy as a collection piece, otherwise they wouldn't be barking for it - the Hiawatha is just such an item. Atlas's shay too, the GS4 and Big Boy as well. Non steam, I'd say there are probably a few GG1 owners out there who aren't modeling the Pennsy, PC, Conrail, or Amtrak or who are modeling anything but electrified routes. And then there are the photos that show up on the Atlas list or in N Scale Mag of roadhouses populated with a mish mash of every steam loco ever sold because someone's just a steamhead, not a modeler per se, and they don't care what side of the country or corner of the states the damn thing ran on, they just like side rods. Whatev.

I bet if you rounded up the people like you and I, who have a focused idea for a model railroad, you'll find more of us are modeling diesel era than steam and, sadly, within that diesel group it's likely to be trending more and  more contemporary than 1st gen as time goes on.  Yes, steam will always be an icon, but as time goes on more and more modelers will be telling their sons about how they paced GEVOs in their SUVs and sparking the kernel of next gen hobbyists, and when it comes time those kids will be buying GEVO models to humor or pay homage to the old man's stories, but hording their 12th gen solar locos for their own layout.

I wanna see AS616 Baldwins, FM H10-44s, and EMD F2s, F5s, and E3s in production too, but I live in reality and know the probability, while not impossible, is scant. As has been said, get on the horn and let the manufacturers know of your want and be ready to put your money where your mouth is for if it happens. But brush up on your DIY, painting, and decaling skills and be ready to be satisfied with the likes of Dave V's idea of loco shells from minority model manufacturing companies because that's likely the future of the hobby.

[DKS]

No it doesn't.  In fact it leaves a lot to be explained.   The PRR was called the standard RR of the World for good reason.   Things were standardized.   Pilot wheels were 33"  Trailing truck was KW with 50" wheels .  Drivers were 63 " for freight [L1, H 8,9,10 and I1] and 80" for passenger [K4, E6].   Same boiler on the L1 as the K4.  E6 had the same boiler as the H series consolidations.  Do you see what I am getting at?  The same drive mechanism could be used on the H series 2-8-0's as the L1 2-8-2's.  In actuality the L1's had an extra inch between drivers 2 and 3 than the H series but I doubt anyone will turn down a model for that one inch.  So economies are available to lower the cost of production because quite literally you do not have to reinvent the wheel or redesign it either.   The same drivers once designed can be used on the H,I and L series engines.  Same with the pilot truck and wheels.  The trailing truck on the L series is the same on the K4 and E6.  The pilot truck and wheels on the K4 is the same as the E6 and I believe the G series too.   The M series 4-8-2's had nonstandard drivers but the trailing and pilot trucks were standard. 

In short not every locomotive need be completely tooled anew.   With all the talk of tooling costs being tossed around as being prohibitive that ability to amortize existing tooling translates into cost savings.

Ah, that wonderfully over-used old marketing saw, "The Standard Railroad of the World." You accuse me of arguing semantics, then wield this phrase like it explains everything. The PRR was standardized, to be sure, but only unto itself. Let's look at things from the perspective of a model manufacturer. If I was to start work on some new steam, what would be the thing I could slap the most roadnames on? Sure, most any USRA design ought to amortize my tooling pretty well. And even if the design was marginal for some roads, it was often close enough. Except PRR. Nope, can't put that on it. Now, if I started work on, say a K4, what roads could I pad-print on the thing? Let's see, PRR, and... well, I suppose anything else I felt like if I didn't care I was the laughing stock of the industry. As for the mentality of "built it, they'll buy it," you need to stroll through some hobby shops (if you can find any) and see the dust collecting on merchandise that someone was convinced would sell like hotcakes.