Just wondering

[SkipGear]

I hate to do this but I just can't help myself......

fuel for the fire....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-N-Scale-Key-Imports-Pennsylvania-PRR-T-1-4-4-4-4-Duplex-Brass-Steam-Engine-/230703794403?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item35b70488e3

[victor miranda]

Ah, that wonderfully over-used old marketing saw, "The Standard Railroad of the World." You accuse me of arguing semantics, then wield this phrase like it explains everything. The PRR was standardized, to be sure, but only unto itself. Let's look at things from the perspective of a model manufacturer. If I was to start work on some new steam, what would be the thing I could slap the most roadnames on? Sure, most any USRA design ought to amortize my tooling pretty well. And even if the design was marginal for some roads, it was often close enough. Except PRR. Nope, can't put that on it. Now, if I started work on, say a K4, what roads could I pad-print on the thing? Let's see, PRR, and... well, I suppose anything else I felt like if I didn't care I was the laughing stock of the industry. As for the mentality of "built it, they'll buy it," you need to stroll through some hobby shops (if you can find any) and see the dust collecting on merchandise that someone was convinced would sell like hotcakes.

I have read this post twice.
.... the odd part is that what you state is hard for me to find cause to disagee...

however, I am thinking  your are not really replying to the point of the post to which you replied.
yup the PRR was its own standard,  I agree.
The fact is; that standard was used to make three different loco types using one boiler(top)
The same tender can be realisticly be behind all three.

with another boiler you can make two more.  (possibly 3 but definitely another tender)
sadly, I don't think you can use the same tender behind all 5
lets say 4.... but that allows more re-issues... in a mix and match way.

the PRR used the same castings and fittings and details on all their locos.

I agree there will only be a few roadnames on the tenders
but there will be need for many tenders...

v

[wm3798]

For the sake of the demographic research being done here, let me chime in...

I'm 47.  My primary interest in N scale model railroading is reliable operation.  Diesels do this for me.
I dabble in steam.  I've done a couple of loose kitbash conversions to achieve a "close enough" WM steamer or two, and I have two more underway, which are basically in suspended animation at the moment (and for the last two years or so worth of moments.)

If more or less exact models of the steam I'm interested in were commercially available, reasonably reliable mechanically, easily convertible to DCC, and could be regarded as affordable (say under $200), then I MIGHT consider adding them to the dabble fleet.  As it is, the conversions I've done have been fun challenges, but nothing on the order of what Richie or Tony have attempted.  If I had to wait to enjoy model railroading until what I wanted was either available or completed at my workbench, I'd still be doodling track plans and waiting.

So, I don't know if 47 qualifies as "trending younger" but I'm pretty sure I'm not a duffer yet, and the availability of steam does not impact my purchasing beyond that dabbling level.

I do know that if someone brought out a perfectly proportioned, fairly detailed WM Potomac, these would be my responses:
Over $1,000 in brass, I'd tape a photo to the layout and dream.
Over $300 in plastic with good reviews, but loaded down with sound and other novelties, I'd wait and see if the price comes down.
Over $100 in plastic with good reviews, good basic DCC friendly electronics and reasonable availability, It would be on my list to buy.
Around $50 for a conversion shell/tender kit that can be dropped onto a Bachmann 4-8-4 mechanism, I'd be all over that like a bad suit, and probably buy 4 or 5 of them.

How's that for market research?
Lee

[lock4244]

Can you do that?  Does it work that way?  It's one thing to ask for a custom paint run of a car they already make...  But a whole locomotive?  That sounds an awful lot like the PCM pre-order fiasco that already burnt us PRR steamheads with their vapor M1a/b.

I'm pretty sure it does. PRR steamheads would supply the capital, research, drawings and whatever else, the mfg the mech (best to choose a mfg that has one) and shop space. This type of thing happens all the time in other businesses. The only difference from a special run of an existing model is the cost. From the mfg's standpoint, its a business and IF they can make money from an endeavor, some mfg's would be willing to take a low risk (someone else's money) job. It's not unprecedented for model mfg's to do custom work, but the deal must favour them and, well, bring money. The forthcoming CN PSC van is something like this, only lower cost as its not a steam locomotive.

[Dave V]

I hate to do this but I just can't help myself......

fuel for the fire....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-N-Scale-Key-Imports-Pennsylvania-PRR-T-1-4-4-4-4-Duplex-Brass-Steam-Engine-/230703794403?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item35b70488e3

There's a demand, no doubt.  $2000+ and rising for a T1.  But what's causing all the spinning wheels is that there's no real objective way to quantify that demand.  Are the handful of us that are vocal the only ones, or are we merely representing a much larger, silent majority?  For that matter, how does anyone really do market research for this sort of thing?  PRR isn't the only road with unique equipment and a vocal following.

I wonder how well the FVM Hiawatha 4-4-2 sold.  I know MILW is his thing, and that's why FVM made it...  It just seems like a Hiawatha set would be an even more obscure/low return product than a one-of-a-class-of-over-500 Pennsy workhorse.  But then again, the Hiawatha was a shiny, colorful train, and I think we all here at the Railwire either forget or just don't realize what impact collectors and "I like pretty trains" people have on sales. 

We assume everyone is like us; we want a pair of grimy PRR I1s 2-10-0s to handle coal drags or iron ore traffic because we want to model that part of Pennsy's operations.  However, there's as big or bigger a chunk of the market who buy trains purely for the "neatness" value.  And honestly, except for some of Pennsy's experiments (like streamlined K4s or the T1), there's not a lot of "neatness" and a whole lot of "brute force and business" in the visage of Pennsy steam.  Many of us have fallen in love with square fireboxes and keystone number plates, but I'm fairly certain that they do next to nothing for a non-Pennsy modeler.  So sales among the collectors and the more capricious buyers who don't care what they run--as long as it looks cool--would probably be lower than for more flashy, colorful choo-choos.

I love Pennsy, but I am perhaps one of the few SPFs who seem to recognize that many (if not most) others don't, and so my expectations are likewise tempered.  I suppose that makes me the family dog under the Thanksgiving table, happy for any scrap of turkey my master might see fit to toss me...  but then again, I'm not afraid to go find my own turkey.

[SkipGear]

There are a lot more closet collectors out there than many realize. I have been forrtunate to run across one at our shop recently. He happens to collect Pennsy steam in HO and now N scale. He doesnt have a layout, just a 12' stretch of track on the wall of his living room to run the trains back and forth, and dummy tracks above to display his collection. He has everything Pennsy that BLI has put out in HO, some of the MTH (which he hates) and a couple brass pieces. He came into the store one day looking for more HO and fell in love with the Kato Broadway set. A week later he came back, picked up the Broadway, a GG1 and enough track to parallel his HO test track. He now comes in every couple weeks, eyeballs the MT heavyweights, and some other goodies in the case deciding what his next N purchase will be. He has already asked about the BLI M1 and I had to let him down gently on that one. He also stumbled across a brass K4 in N that he picked up and says it looks better that a lot of his HO. He is somebody that would buy any Pennsy steam that came out without question. There are more like him out there. They don't come on these forums, they don't belong to clubs, they just collect what they like.

[delamaize]

I dont' even model the PRR, I would love to have myself a good K-4, I-1sa, E-6, T-1, and A-6b.

[lock4244]

Life would be simpler if we all modeled the ATSF or BNSF or UP.

[inkaneer]

I must strongly disagree with this. I really hate to sound like Inky but majority of modelers I know would switch to steam in a heartbeat if there was more offered. They run diesel because the steam they want is not offered. If you want to "model" steam, you have to be a true modeler because there are very few if any roads that you can model off the shelf and have a reasonable steam loco roster. Being an accurate steam modeler requires modeling skills way beyond adding grabs, sunshades and relocating the horn or bell on a diesel and calling it done. Most people don't have or want to learn the skills to do this so they take the easy way out and model what is available.

 A friend of mine has a fairly huge B&O layout that if he had his druthers would be all steam. Being that there is only one piece of accurate B&O steam offered and a few close enoughs, steam can not be a reality for him. If he sat down and started kitbashing the 20-30 loco's he would need for his roster now, his layout would never be finished. Instead he chose transition era so that he can mix in steam as he gets around to them and buy RTR diesels now to get things up and running.

 I model B&O with some C&O and PRR thrown in. Modeling B&O is the biggest challenge because like the Pennsy, they used very little off the shelf when it came to steam. Most loco's were built in house and nobody has done any accurate B&O to use as a starting point. The closest thing B&O out there is the Rivarossi vanderbilt tender which is a B&O prototype and helps give the B&O flavor. You can use the Bachmann USRA 0-6-0 and make a B&O D-30 out of it. Beyond that, everything is a kitbash or build. C&O is probably the easiest to model because there are 5 out of the box prototypes you can buy: H4 2-6-6-2, H5 2-6-6-2, Berkshire, Heavy Mountain, and the USRA 0-8-0. There quite a few other close enoughs. PRR is not really that hard to model because the previous offerings make great starting points and kitbash fodder.

You can somewhat call it the chicken and egg effect. Are there not a lot of B&O steam modelers because the equipment is not offered, or is there not alot of B&O steam offered because nobody models it....(insert your road of choice in place of B&O)

"I really hate to sound like Inky but majority of modelers I know would switch to steam in a heartbeat if there was more offered." 

Aw come on now, it ain't that bad.   but your post echoes the point I was trying to make.  I am not as knowledgeable about the B&O but it sounds like  a carbon copy of the PRR situation.  The B&O also has a rather large historical society.   These are people interested in the B&O.  So what happens if they cannot get any B&O N scale models?  They go to where they can and that is HO.  N scale will grow only if we can bring these people into the fold.  We all know that N scale enjoys a lot of advantages over HO but Nscale is hampered growth wise by availability of product.  Make it and they will come still makes sense.

[Dave V]

Life would be simpler if we all modeled the ATSF or BNSF or UP.

Honestly, after a tour of duty in Nebraska, a modern UP/BNSF layout is much more attractive to me than I ever would have thought.  That's some damned impressive railroading.  The scenery is pretty bland, though.  The area down around Plattsmouth, NE, up to Omaha, where the UP and BNSF parallel each other along the Missouri River, would be a neat model.  They cross the Platte on parallel bridges.

That would make the top 10 of my "if I couldn't model PRR/CR anymore" list.  Ahead of it would be a Colorado Midland circa 1910, the Lehigh Valley around Easton/Phillipsburg circa 1970, a modern-day NS Harrisburg Line (former Reading), the Durham and Southern through Apex, NC (similar to what I'm doing for my son Jacob) but dual era (modern day and circa 1970, D&S and SBD), bailing on N scale altogether and doing HOn3 D&RGW Chili Line, and a few others.

Choosing a prototype is sometimes like choosing a puppy.  You want to take them all home but you can only really take good care of one or two at the most.

[inkaneer]

I can see the Railwire reception when this locomotive was announced and the roadnames were PRR and:

Long Island Railroad (a few H-class 2-8-0s and some G5 4-6-0s)
Western Allegheny (a few H-class 2-8-0s)
Bellefonte Central (3 H9sb 2-8-0s)
Lehigh and New England (4 L1s 2-8-2s)
Union Transportation (1 B6sb 0-6-0)
Kishacoquillas Valley Railroad (2 D16sb 4-4-0s)

Are you making those up? 

I admire people who quit gripping and do something about it.  Your steam looks fantastic (coming from someone who has no idea what it should look like!).

PRR steamers like the H series 2-8-0's  worked on local coal hauling RR's and short lines long after being bumped from the PRR.   Even some larger RR's bought them like the Pittsburg & Shawmutt.   Some of these lasted until being bumped  by 1st generation diesels some of which are still in service.   I believe the Strasburg RR has a PRR G series steam engine in operation.

[Dave V]

I believe the Strasburg RR has a PRR G series steam engine in operation.

No, but there are two LIRR G5s being restored for operation on Long Island.  At least one of these engines is at Strasburg's shops (#39, I believe) but the intent is for it to operate on the Greenport branch on Long Island's north fork.  As a Long Island native, I'm very excited about this.

Strasburg operated PRR D16sb 4-4-0 #1223 and E7s (rebuilt E3) 4-4-2 #7002 until 1989, when new inspection equipment purchased by Strasburg showed the fireboxes on both had worn too thin to continue operation.  Both reside across the street with their owner, the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.

Presently Strasburg operates only one former PRR engine, a former PRR GE 44-ton diesel.

[Ian MacMillan]

Honestly, after a tour of duty in Nebraska, a modern UP/BNSF layout is much more attractive to me than I ever would have thought.  That's some damned impressive railroading.  The scenery is pretty bland, though.  The area down around Plattsmouth, NE, up to Omaha, where the UP and BNSF parallel each other along the Missouri River, would be a neat model.  They cross the Platte on parallel bridges.

That would make the top 10 of my "if I couldn't model PRR/CR anymore" list.  Ahead of it would be a Colorado Midland circa 1910, the Lehigh Valley around Easton/Phillipsburg circa 1970, a modern-day NS Harrisburg Line (former Reading), the Durham and Southern through Apex, NC (similar to what I'm doing for my son Jacob) but dual era (modern day and circa 1970, D&S and SBD), bailing on N scale altogether and doing HOn3 D&RGW Chili Line, and a few others.

Choosing a prototype is sometimes like choosing a puppy.  You want to take them all home but you can only really take good care of one or two at the most.

If I was to do "modern" railroading it would be UP's Shasta Route...man that is some nice mountain scenery.

If I wasnt doing CR, I would do:
#1- Milwaukee Rd around Tomah, WI or Chicago,IL
#2- Rio Grande's Tennessee Pass or Moffat Line

[inkaneer]

Really?  Are we going to travel this road yet again?

How can you state it's not economics when you have no horse in the race, and have never had a horse in the race?  If you believe Pennsy steam is such a "sure thing", then why won't you entertain securing some financing and bringing one to market yourself?  If you are correct and the consumer demand exists, it could convince the manufacturers to revisit steam models.  Or, you could use the profits and continue to introduce additional models.

Because I have no interest at my age to re-enter the rat race of business.  Okay?  I am quite satisfied to be a consumer.  What we are being told here is that the PRR and the B&O guys and others  are not wanted in N scale.    So what happens if we all decide to go to HO.  How does that translate economically.   N scale loses customers HO scale gains.   Manufacturers see that and cut back on N scale while increasing HO.   So how does that affect all you others?   Now there is your economics.

[MichaelWinicki]

I wonder how well the FVM Hiawatha 4-4-2 sold.  I know MILW is his thing, and that's why FVM made it...  It just seems like a Hiawatha set would be an even more obscure/low return product than a one-of-a-class-of-over-500 Pennsy workhorse.  But then again, the Hiawatha was a shiny, colorful train, and I think we all here at the Railwire either forget or just don't realize what impact collectors and "I like pretty trains" people have on sales. 

That's the one that would lead me to believe that a PRR-themed steam locomotive could be released... The release of a more obscure locomotive.