Author Topic: Just wondering  (Read 23813 times)

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lock4244

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2011, 07:10:02 PM »
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Why don't the PRR guys (greater community, not just on this board) fund the production of an N scale K4? If you approached FVM with enough $$$ to cover the cost of development and made it worth their while, I'm sure get yourselves a sweet little K4. Then, with that success under you belt, you could move onto the next PRR steamer you wanted.

My $0.02

SkipGear

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2011, 03:22:13 PM »
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You need to consider the market's future too. It can be argued that N scale is more attuned to post-steam modelers, as N scale was born and came of age post-steam. Psychographically, the tendency is to model what you know, so if you weren't around steam when it was in its heyday you're likely to not model it. For several reasons, N scalers as a group likely trend younger than the larger scales, so steam modelers are going to be in the minority in the scale/customer base. No, I don't have hard numbers to back this up, but believe me when I say I'm usually right about these things.

 I must strongly disagree with this. I really hate to sound like Inky but majority of modelers I know would switch to steam in a heartbeat if there was more offered. They run diesel because the steam they want is not offered. If you want to "model" steam, you have to be a true modeler because there are very few if any roads that you can model off the shelf and have a reasonable steam loco roster. Being an accurate steam modeler requires modeling skills way beyond adding grabs, sunshades and relocating the horn or bell on a diesel and calling it done. Most people don't have or want to learn the skills to do this so they take the easy way out and model what is available.

 A friend of mine has a fairly huge B&O layout that if he had his druthers would be all steam. Being that there is only one piece of accurate B&O steam offered and a few close enoughs, steam can not be a reality for him. If he sat down and started kitbashing the 20-30 loco's he would need for his roster now, his layout would never be finished. Instead he chose transition era so that he can mix in steam as he gets around to them and buy RTR diesels now to get things up and running.

 I model B&O with some C&O and PRR thrown in. Modeling B&O is the biggest challenge because like the Pennsy, they used very little off the shelf when it came to steam. Most loco's were built in house and nobody has done any accurate B&O to use as a starting point. The closest thing B&O out there is the Rivarossi vanderbilt tender which is a B&O prototype and helps give the B&O flavor. You can use the Bachmann USRA 0-6-0 and make a B&O D-30 out of it. Beyond that, everything is a kitbash or build. C&O is probably the easiest to model because there are 5 out of the box prototypes you can buy: H4 2-6-6-2, H5 2-6-6-2, Berkshire, Heavy Mountain, and the USRA 0-8-0. There quite a few other close enoughs. PRR is not really that hard to model because the previous offerings make great starting points and kitbash fodder.

You can somewhat call it the chicken and egg effect. Are there not a lot of B&O steam modelers because the equipment is not offered, or is there not alot of B&O steam offered because nobody models it....(insert your road of choice in place of B&O)


Tony Hines

Dave V

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2011, 07:50:47 PM »
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Why don't the PRR guys (greater community, not just on this board) fund the production of an N scale K4? If you approached FVM with enough $$$ to cover the cost of development and made it worth their while, I'm sure get yourselves a sweet little K4. Then, with that success under you belt, you could move onto the next PRR steamer you wanted.

My $0.02

Can you do that?  Does it work that way?  It's one thing to ask for a custom paint run of a car they already make...  But a whole locomotive?  That sounds an awful lot like the PCM pre-order fiasco that already burnt us PRR steamheads with their vapor M1a/b.

As for what other roadnames you could slap on a Pennsy engine, believe it or not, there are a few.  Obscure to the maximum, but a few.  Off the top of my head:

Long Island Railroad (a few H-class 2-8-0s and some G5 4-6-0s)
Western Allegheny (a few H-class 2-8-0s)
Bellefonte Central (3 H9sb 2-8-0s)
Lehigh and New England (4 L1s 2-8-2s)
Union Transportation (1 B6sb 0-6-0)
Kishacoquillas Valley Railroad (2 D16sb 4-4-0s)

There may be a few others.  Of course, none of the aforementioned railroads (save for the LIRR and LNE) are probably even known to the big manufacturers, and I would bet the return on that investment wouldn't even cover the label on the box.

Now, that said, what was an abomination was when PCM/BLI announced they would burst into the DCC/sound N scale steam market and deliver a PRR M1a/b as awesome as what they'd done in HO.  All they needed was a few pre-orders.  So we did.  We lined up and said in good faith that we would buy them if they came.  BLI/PCM kept dodging the question of just how many pre-orders they needed, and then for years spun a rotating wheel of excuses as to why it wasn't on your LHS shelf yet.  Many of us are very, very bitter about that, because while we are not at all convinced that BLI/PCM's perception of market demand was even close to accurate, they probably scared all the other big boys away from Pennsy steam for generations if not for good.  All except Bachmann, I should think.  That they've introduced GP7s, RS3s, and a number of duplicate freight cars in direct competition with Atlas suggests they may be more open to risk than most companies.  Plus, that they seem to have the upper hand in China gives me some hope.  The K4 is a natural for them given that they make one in HO.  The recent run of MTL PRR heavyweights should only increase demand, if only slightly.

However, I'm not holding my breath.  Instead I'm running my brass K4 that Lee and Victor helped me get running well and with DCC.  I wanted a K4 badly enough.  As for all of my kitbashed PRR steam, while not perfect, they represent doing something about it.

sirenwerks

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2011, 08:01:00 PM »
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I must strongly disagree with this. I really hate to sound like Inky but majority of modelers I know would switch to steam in a heartbeat if there was more offered....

And on that note, it's no psychological mystery that we tend to befriend people that are like us. The peoploe we call BFF tend to be of similar belief systems, religions, political outlooks, education, salary, race, etc. and, when one happens to be a model railroader, that carries over as well. We may not make this selection process consciously (in fact denial can be pretty strong), but we do it all the same. For instance, when you look at my modeling buds they are quietly brilliant, opinionated and slightly condescending creative types who focus on the 60s or 70s. So, we know people that are likely to feel and act just like us, and hence the majority of your friends wanting the same thing you want, to pull a Benedict Arnold and go all fire and water. Duh.

And the B&O is not the biggest challenge. The GN is. Oh wait, no it's the IC. Oh wait, it's the CGW. Few steam models match a prototype perfectly out of the box. But the same can be said for diesels; pretty much every model needs detailing to match a prototype to some degree, and there are many diesels still not produced that we all need so bad, just like steam models. To enter into a modeling decision requiring highly specialized models and hoping the commercial market will fill that need is a dicey gable at best. In fact, thinking about it depresses me so much I am going to switch to something easier, like modeling electric railroads. I'm sure Kato's GG1 is just the start of a slew of electric locos and the BA&P GEs will be on the shelf in no time. :D Uh huh.  :trollface:

I'm happy for Milwaukee modelers and for those who model the SP and UP, etc. I'm not going to let their having it easier get in the way of my modeling though.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 08:30:36 PM by sirenwerks »
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Scottl

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2011, 08:01:56 PM »
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I can see the Railwire reception when this locomotive was announced and the roadnames were PRR and:

Long Island Railroad (a few H-class 2-8-0s and some G5 4-6-0s)
Western Allegheny (a few H-class 2-8-0s)
Bellefonte Central (3 H9sb 2-8-0s)
Lehigh and New England (4 L1s 2-8-2s)
Union Transportation (1 B6sb 0-6-0)
Kishacoquillas Valley Railroad (2 D16sb 4-4-0s)

Are you making those up?  :ashat:

I admire people who quit gripping and do something about it.  Your steam looks fantastic (coming from someone who has no idea what it should look like!).


James Costello

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2011, 09:05:11 PM »
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Why don't the PRR guys (greater community, not just on this board) fund the production of an N scale K4? If you approached FVM with enough $$$ to cover the cost of development and made it worth their while, I'm sure get yourselves a sweet little K4. Then, with that success under you belt, you could move onto the next PRR steamer you wanted.

My $0.02

Sounds like a great idea, especially if the Historical society is THAT large.....
James Costello
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SkipGear

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2011, 09:06:53 PM »
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And on that note, it's no psychological mystery that we tend to befriend people that are like us. The peoploe we call BFF tend to be of similar belief systems, religions, political outlooks, education, salary, race, etc. and, when one happens to be a model railroader, that carries over as well. We may not make this selection process consciously (in fact denial can be pretty strong), but we do it all the same. For instance, when you look at my modeling buds they are quietly brilliant, opinionated and slightly condescending creative types who focus on the 60s or 70s. So, we know people that are likely to feel and act just like us, and hence the majority of your friends wanting the same thing you want, to pull a Benedict Arnold and go all fire and water. Duh.

And the B&O is not the biggest challenge. The GN is. Oh wait, no it's the IC. Oh wait, it's the CGW. Few steam models match a prototype perfectly out of the box. But the same can be said for diesels; pretty much every model needs detailing to match a prototype to some degree, and there are many diesels still not produced that we all need so bad, just like steam models. To enter into a modeling decision requiring highly specialized models and hoping the commercial market will fill that need is a dicey gable at best. In fact, thinking about it depresses me so much I am going to switch to something easier, like modeling electric railroads. I'm sure Kato's GG1 is just the start of a slew of electric locos and the BA&P GEs will be on the shelf in no time. :D Uh huh.  :trollface:

I'm happy for Milwaukee modelers and for those who model the SP and UP, etc. I'm not going to let their having it easier get in the way of my modeling though.

First off, I work at a hobby shop and the people I know are not just friends who share the same interest. They run the full range of my customers. New people coming in, 9 times out of 10 ask about steam first. They would rather do steam but usually end up down the path of diesel simplly because of availability. I have one customer, a pilot from Vegas that stops by when in town that is a modern BNSF modeler (Kato's favorite type of customer) but his favorite loco hands down....a GS4 that I put sound in for him. All the guys in our N trak group have a steam dark side but because of the complexity of steam and reliability on Ntrak situations, they stick to diesels for the most part.

Second, I said B&O was the biggest challenge for me, not the biggest challenge period. I really don't know which line would be the hardest to model in steam. It really doesn't matter which is the overall hardest, it only matters how hard it is to model the line you are interested in. Yes, there are some missing diesels out there but not so many that you can't work around them to model a particular road in most cases. Try modeling L&N in steam era with off the shelf equipment, there isn't one thing out there right for the road. Now look at the same road in diesel times. The only roads in diesel era that may be a struggle to model are those that favored Alco's.

Detailing a diesel doesn't consist of changing boiler diameter, steam dome location, valve gear, driver diameter, wheelbase, etc. etc. Detailing a diesel is primarily adding bits, swaping fans, getting the correct trucks or adding or removing dynamics (which any more is likely available in the version you need anyhow).  Making a diesel right for a road is much easier and well within most modelers comfort zone, tha same cannot be said for steam. A custom diesel takes me at most a month to complete, usually just a couple weeks, steam projects can take up to 6 months to finish with a similar level of detail to a diesel.

Again, is the problem lack of models or lack of modelers?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 09:14:00 PM by SkipGear »
Tony Hines

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2011, 09:42:44 PM »
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During WWII the Santa Fe had a few PRR engines also.  Believe they were 2-8-2's.  So add that to the list.  And since the boiler of the K4 and the Mikado are the same except for steam chest placement, you could easily do both.

SkipGear

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2011, 10:35:14 PM »
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If you want some more commonality in PRR steam. B&O E24 and later L1 (converted to switcher duty by removing pilot wheels) were based on Pennsy H8/9/10.

B&O E24 - http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo2210s.jpg
B&O L1 - http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo1077s.jpg
Tony Hines

bbussey

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2011, 11:04:13 PM »
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Well I didn't want this to spiral into another Pennsy rant but maybe it was inevitable.   In any event it does not boil down to economics...

Really?  Are we going to travel this road yet again?

How can you state it's not economics when you have no horse in the race, and have never had a horse in the race?  If you believe Pennsy steam is such a "sure thing", then why won't you entertain securing some financing and bringing one to market yourself?  If you are correct and the consumer demand exists, it could convince the manufacturers to revisit steam models.  Or, you could use the profits and continue to introduce additional models.
Bryan Busséy
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victor miranda

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2011, 11:32:31 PM »
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a lot of oddly parallel posts to the kato--east thread.

I am completely sure of two things
one is that steam engines are popular only if they are as reliable as the diesels

The other they are a complete stack of pains to detail to any one road.

skipgear mentions these and I agree and want to reinforce the statements.

some where in my recent past I made a used a minitrix K4 and a c55 chassis
to build a reliable and somewhat improved appearance locomotive.

one of the things that surprised me was the overall cost.
I had accquired the parts over a few years so I didn't feel any real pain
and those parts totaled just a little under 200 and I had to bolt it together.
the loco is reliable and pulls well.

all that is to make clear that a semi-scratch built steam loco is never cheap.

keep that in mind when one is looking for any given steam engine
in order for a steam engine to be 'close enough'  it has a bad habit of
being 'waaaay off' for any other road.

the exact model steamer made is not my biggest concern
what I think n-scale needs is to get the features that
make a reliable steamer onto new steamers.

b-mann has been doing the best overall job.
mainly because only Kato has been doing steam recently enough to compare.

we know the overall construction design to make a steam loco as reliable
as any diesel and we can not seem to get the manufacturers to stick to the design.

I believe that if any steam loco were to built to that reliable deisgn,
more people would be willing to pay the about double price for any one steam engine.

that faith does not exist and causes a lot of sale resistance.

v
 
 
 
 


victor miranda

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2011, 11:45:22 PM »
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Why don't the PRR guys (greater community, not just on this board) fund the production of an N scale K4? If you approached FVM with enough $$$ to cover the cost of development and made it worth their while, I'm sure get yourselves a sweet little K4. Then, with that success under you belt, you could move onto the next PRR steamer you wanted.

My $0.02

FVM may well be the best bet for such an endeavor.
I am not of the opinion that FVM has a solid track record in the creation of steamers.

the Folks at Atlas have said they would be glad to deal with
an organization that wants to do such a thing ( bring cash...)
and they also find steam a struggle....

my problem is that If I am going to raise such capital
I will want to own the commercial rights to the tooling....

and that is where such a project will founder.
 
consider what a struggle it is to get an order together for a few hundred
custom painted cars.

v

Gozer the Gozerian

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2011, 11:47:01 PM »
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Doing any Pennsy steam would be a tough marketing nut to crack.  But I think regardless of the road you model there's always chunks missing.   I do SP and have no complaints of course, but I would love to be able and go out and buy G units without all the skirting and wild paint schemes.  Just hate striping down those Kato units.  The golden ring for a lot of SP mainline modelers is the S-1,2,3 4-10-2 , but those were as specific as the Penn K's I suspect.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Joe
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bbussey

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2011, 07:59:14 PM »
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Bryan (Busséy),

Would ESM entertain any sort of Pennsy conversion boilers, cabs, and tenders for existing N scale mechanisms?  I really think the heavy 4-8-2 from Bachmann (with the 6-wheel tender trucks) could be made into an almost M1 with help from Shapeways.  I would do everything I could to help make that a reality.

Rather than shake our fists at the big guys, let's not forget our local RW manufacturer-friends, many of whom have already shown a strong Eastern focus.

It's frustrating to see just how much obscure Pennsy stuff is RTR in HO, but what I don't know is how well that stuff sells once released.  Either way, I think Pennsy steam will be a cottage industry until one of the big boys (Bachmann?) takes the plunge.  If that never happens, it won't surprise me.  But just remember, there's more to modeling than just opening a box.

How well did GHQ's L1 conversion kit sell, just out of curiosity?

Shapeways isn't really an option until they get their rendering issues rectified.  Using one of the other methods, whether PerFactory or ProJet or one of the others, would cost a few hundred for rendering the pilot model.  Add in $10 or so per casting in 25-piece lots.  And the design costs.  So even a limited-run project would cost some investment up front.

Bryan Busséy
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Dave V

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Re: Just wondering
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2011, 12:16:49 AM »
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Bryan,

I do know that they sold enough that GHQ, a few years later, fired up a second run.  What's great about that kit is that the cast pewter adds a bunch of weight on the drivers and aids pulling power.  A Shapeways shell would do no better than a normal plastic boiler in that respect.  Nevertheless, I can wait for the techniques to be refined as necessary.