PRR/Conrail Juniata Division Engineering Report

[asciibaron]

then scratchbuilding the Lewistown station would be a waste of time and resources.

you could always sell it and see it win prizes...

[davefoxx]

i guess i could amend my comment to this:

"if your current layout has stopped being fun, it's worse than not having a layout"

why?

rebuilding the entire thing means tossing a huge amount of yourself in the trash.  some people can not let it go so easily.

I still don't agree with you, Steve.  I had fun building every one of my previous layouts, and I also appreciate every bit of enjoyment that I got out of them.  Some came down, because it was time for something new; others due to moves.  But I still say something is better than nothing.

As you may know, I did not trash my door layout.  It presently resides in the home of a fellow TRW member.  I hope he is enjoying it as much as I did.  When my fiancee and I finally sell our townhomes and buy a single-residential home, hopefully, I can build a larger layout.  But, at that time, I will offer my 2' x 3' layout to someone, so it also does not get trashed.  However, if it does not get a new home, I don't have a lot of money in it, because I built it with leftovers from the Virginia Central.  In addition, a lot of people recycle the benchwork, track, structures, etc. from one layout when starting over.  It doesn't have to be a complete loss.

You have a layout plan, which is a nice one.  What are you afraid of?  Build it and stop making excuses.

I apologize to Dave Vollmer for continuing to go off-topic.  Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Dave Foxx

[Zox]

having a layout you are unhappy with is worse than not having a layout.

Modular railroading means never having to say, "now I have to rip it all out and start over..."

[wm3798]

having a layout you are unhappy with is worse than not having a layout. 

I would NOT agree.

A fish is better off in dirty water than in clean air... 

[Dave V]

Dave,

No problem.  In fact, I'm very glad you saved your previous layout.  It is extremely well-crafted, and the trees are just spectacular.

The Juniata Division, however, will very likely end up some day in a dumpster as have all my previous layouts.

"WHAT???  What a waste!"

"Yeah, you could get some decent cash for that thing!"

True, enough people have come to know the Juniata Division through my presence on the web that it might fetch some cash.  And I understand that while I would never recover the funds that went into building it, I could still conceivably fetch something approaching 4 digits.

I'm an AVID recycler...  So when I have decided a layout has given me all it can and is ready to be put to bed I strip it bare like a BMW parked in a bad neighborhood.  Every tree, line pole, trash can, switchstand, fence post, bush, tie stack, wire, and even track, is salvaged.  Some trees on the Juniata Division are on their FOURTH layout!  The legs holding up the Juniata Division used to support my previous PRR Northern Division N scale layout.

When one of my layouts is ready for the trash it is little more than a few barren hill forms, some scattered stretches of battered track, and a few clumps of weeds that were too stubborn to come off.

This is why/how I'm able to make good progress on layout construction.  I have structures and detail parts from previous layouts ready to go at a moment's notice.

Most of you will think me crazy for not selling my layout once I'm done with it.  The other reason, and one that I know makes me sound neurotic, is that the thought of my layout in someone else's home, being subjected to their whims, is very disconcerting to me.

[asciibaron]

be careful, recycling can perpetuate the problems of your old layout. 

[Dave V]

Steve,

True enough...  In fact, what is now the Mid State Farm Supply started as a small kitbashed Walthers feedmill from my previous layout.  It was too tiny for rail service.  However, I felt compelled to use it again.  It never looked worthy of rail service until I expanded it to include the farm store.

However, my main problems center around my cluelessness regarding operations and how to plan for operations.

[asciibaron]

However, my main problems center around my cluelessness regarding operations and how to plan for operations.

John Armstrong's book is essential:

Track Planning for Realistic Operation

read that and then spend a year watching trains work.  setup somewhere serious switching takes place.  watch the trains drop power, set out cars, crew changes.  it all has bearing.  

find a group of people who have operations on their layouts.  that will help too.

[DKS]

i guess i could amend my comment to this:

"if your current layout has stopped being fun, it's worse than not having a layout"

why?

rebuilding the entire thing means tossing a huge amount of yourself in the trash.  some people can not let it go so easily.

I still don't agree with you, Steve.  I had fun building every one of my previous layouts, and I also appreciate every bit of enjoyment that I got out of them.  Some came down, because it was time for something new; others due to moves.  But I still say something is better than nothing.

I must agree with Dave completely here. I too have had multiple layouts over the years. To quote, some came down because it was time for something new; others due to moves. What I've learned from all of this is that it's hard to figure out what's right and what's wrong when all you have is air. A "bad" layout at least gives you the opportunity to work things out, because vaporware layouts are not good learning tools.

be careful, recycling can perpetuate the problems of your old layout. 

Recycling a layout is one thing; recycling elements from it is another. One might have a "bad" layout that is still populated by useful items, particularly structures. What's the point in throwing out a whole layout and then going out and buying many of the same kits that it had? With a bit of bashing you could have an old layout full of useful gems, and it would help the new layout progress that much more quickly. Anyway, usually what's "bad" about a layout is its concept, more so than its content.

[asciibaron]

recycling becomes a problem when you have things that in your mind have a specific role.  sure using a city block over again is no problem, but what about that coal tipple, are you putting it on the layout because you intend to model a coal operation or because you have it and don't all layouts have a coal tipple?

my interest in the hobby is not building the layout and then sitting back and watching the trains run.  i'm building a 3 dimensional logic game.  if the game is unworkable, it's time to start anew.  having a logic game that does not work as intended after several thousand hours of work could be difficult to dismantle.  sure i enjoy the process of building the layout, but i'm after the final product, i'm looking to have an operating railroad, just not using "big cars"

i know many people that have started over once the layout was finished because their hobby was building, not operating.  you won't find a super detailed layout in my house, the layout is the stage for the logic game.  i am a railroad modeler, not a model railroader.  they might sound like the same thing, but they are worlds away from each other.

[DKS]

i am a railroad modeler, not a model railroader.  they might sound like the same thing, but they are worlds away from each other.

Steve, I don't think it's necessary to beat this drum so much here. Most of us know what your focus is, and I think most of us understand the distinction you're trying to make. I'd also advise against attempting to make it so black-and-white. There are shades of grey; some modelers do both--you'll find plenty of super-detailed layouts being regularly and properly operated. At the other end of the spectrum are hardcore operators who never get past the tracklaying stage, and are perfectly content. There are some who focus on one small aspect of operations, say just switching a ferry--perhaps out of choice, perhaps out of necessity. There are loads of other examples that cut across the dividing lines.

I was not suggesting that Dave, or anyone else, should recycle for the sake of recycling. That said, perhaps for the first pass of an operations-oriented layout with a specific setting, Dave might choose to save a little time and money by letting a bashed coal tipple serve as a "stand-in" industry where something else might eventually go. Also, look at Lee: he's got to be one of the bigger recyclers around here, and no one can accuse him of being a roundy-rounder.

[sizemore]

having a layout you are unhappy with is worse than not having a layout. 

I would NOT agree.

after you've built 6 or 7 layouts that you are not happy with get back to me on that

Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves.... Proper planning prevents poor performance.

The S.

[asciibaron]

well, when i'm constantly the punchline regarding my lack of a layout, the distinct needs to be explained.  sure it's not black and white, but what is - my point was understood by one person who commented in this thread.  i have built about 14 layouts over the years - i know exactly what i want.  i'm not talking about dream layouts - i'm talking about the components of the layout.  operational aspects, scenic elements, the character of the prototype, a fine scale look, and excellent track work.  

simply throwing together a door based layout gets me a layout, but does nothing to fulfill my reasons for wanting a layout.  i think Dave is starting to see what he really wants from a layout and why his current layout is missing that mark.  having that understanding is helpful, but also removes a bit of the "innocence" of model trains.  knowing what you want can become a burden.

[asciibaron]

Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves.... Proper planning prevents poor performance.

We got our own ammunition, it's filled with paint. When we fire it, it makes... pretty pictures   great movie.

you can't plan for something you haven't realized you want or didn't understand previously.  what looks good on paper might not operate the way you want.  until you have tried to run a proper operating session on the layout, you won't know if you plan will work exactly as thought.  there is not a single layout that has been built for operations that hasn't been redesigned.  look at the V&O - that was modified so many times Allen decided to start over because the overall philosophy was sound, just the execution was lacking. 

heck, the prototype has operational problems that it has to sort out and sometimes that means reconfiguring an interlocking or reducing a grade, or reversing a crossover.

[DKS]

i have built about 14 layouts over the years - i know exactly what i want.

Sorry, this is a contradictory statement.