PRR/Conrail Juniata Division Engineering Report

[Philip H]

Dave, I feel your pain - literally!  While a freshman in college I broke my L-2 and crushed the disks on either side of it.  The fracture is ok, but as teh disks degenerate, the pain increases. My original orthopedist told me 20 years to surgey - and I'm now dialing in on 21 (as this happened in 1989).  So I know the Trauma of which you speak.

 

[pfs]

Dave

This is an decent resource for ops.

Just ask questions you will be sure to get 3 or more opinions .

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ry-ops-industrialSIG/

[DKS]

Dave, I feel your pain - literally!  While a freshman in college I broke my L-2 and crushed the disks on either side of it.  The fracture is ok, but as teh disks degenerate, the pain increases. My original orthopedist told me 20 years to surgey - and I'm now dialing in on 21 (as this happened in 1989).  So I know the Trauma of which you speak.

Ditto. I have two C discs and two L discs that are collapsing, which started when I was in college. Also had recommendations for surgery. But based on interviews with many people who have had the surgery, the recommendation is to hold off for absolutely as long as possible, because the success rate is pretty dismal. I've also been advised to avoid chiropractors, because unless they know exactly what they're doing (which apparently is rare), they can do more harm than good.

[Dave V]

Yeah, I'm hoping to avoid surgery.  You know, my Dad had the same issue (degenerative disc disease).  It was really bad (enough that he was 4F for Vietnam and lost his Air Force ROTC pilot slot).  However, he's gotten much better as he's gotten older to where now it's not a big problem for him at all at the ripe age of 69.

I have a good chiropractor, also former Air Force.  It works like magic.  More so than being doped-up on drugs.

I'm still no where near bad enough for surgery, thankfully.  I'm also not yet on the medical bad-boy list.  In fact, I went to Iraq right after herniating my L5 because I never told my unit deployment officer.  I didn't want to stay home and watch it on TV.  In retrospect that was a bad idea, because I didn't get the physical therapy in time to make as big a difference.

Oh, well...  At least I know I should avoid too many duck-unders for my layout!  Another option is to build it tall and then use a chair or stool on rollers to scoot underneath.  This may be the way I go; I really like cockpit-style layouts versus the island-style I have now.

[wm3798]

Now that much of the line is hiking trail (I believe the trail coexists with the more or less dormant rail line north of New Freedom) you have better access to it than you would have were it an active line.

Maybe the upper reaches of the NCR trail would be a good site for a Rail-B-Q??

Lee

[conrail98]

Now, a little clarification is in order.  Indeed, the track south of York was single-tracked in 1959.  I'd found some very nice track diagrams explaining the same.  I've not yet found the same info for the track north of York.  The line was out of service between New Freedom and Cockeysville after Agnes in 1972, but north of York was and is still to this day intact and in use.  

Dave,

This site might have the info you are working for:

Track Chars: http://www.multimodalways.org/archives/rrs/CR/CR%20Track%20Charts/CR%20Track%20Charts.html
ZTS :http://www.multimodalways.org/archives/rrs/CR/CR%20ZTS/CR%20ZTS.html

All RRs:http://www.multimodalways.org/archives/rrs/rrs.html

HOWEVER, my intent with this would be to do what Ed K is doing and pretend Agnes did NOT destroy the NCRR south of York.  This would give me continued TOFC, coal, and passenger service in both eras (assuming Amtrak's DC connection to the Broadway Limited would use this line instead of the Port Road as it did in the early Amtrak years).  This also allows Ed and I to use the same CR freight symbols and timetables.

I think Ed's history has Agnes wiping out the Port Road so Amtrak would come up through York then get over to Harrisburg across, I would assume, one of the south of Harrisburg bridges.

Phil

[sizemore]

"Hi, guys, remember me?  I was the original topic of this thread.  I'm the Harrisburg-York line. ;D"

Harrisburg to York is not included in the NCR correct? This was the information I found on the NCR about single versus doubletrack from Wikipedia:

The S.

S...  Technically, the original NCRR ran from Baltimore all the way up to Sunbury.  Later mergers extended it even farther north.  The line from York to Harrisburg was most definitely a part, as evidenced by the NCR standard depot architecture at Cly and Mt Wolf.

Now, a little clarification is in order.  Indeed, the track south of York was single-tracked in 1959.  I'd found some very nice track diagrams explaining the same.  I've not yet found the same info for the track north of York.  The line was out of service between New Freedom and Cockeysville after Agnes in 1972, but north of York was and is still to this day intact and in use.  

HOWEVER, my intent with this would be to do what Ed K is doing and pretend Agnes did NOT destroy the NCRR south of York.  This would give me continued TOFC, coal, and passenger service in both eras (assuming Amtrak's DC connection to the Broadway Limited would use this line instead of the Port Road as it did in the early Amtrak years).  This also allows Ed and I to use the same CR freight symbols and timetables.

Just a few more thoughts.  Man, I hate that I have to wait another 6 hours before I can get in to my chiropractor...  Grumble/pain.

All good info! I fit in between Ed and you. My iteration of the NCR is a freelanced road called the Baltimore and York Railway to fit in with a future planned WM "Eastern Division". Pretty much the NCR gets donked off in '68 when PC needed to "cut fat" between Baltimore and York, Maryland subsidizes a railroad, and it's aided along by the WM (LINK). Once I can get into a house, it might be interesting to have somewhat overlapping plans with industries. It will be interesting to see how both your route and Ed's develop!

[Bob Bufkin]

I know that PC ran mostly piggyback trians on this line with only 1 or 2 mixed freights, the rest going via the port road.  Amtrak ran the Washington section of the Broadway Limited on it until the hurricane.  Here's a couple shots of the Broadway at Bowie, MD headed for Baltimore and then up the NC route.



Gives you an idea of what kind of equipment to get for your 70's Broadway.

[Dave V]

Aw that's hawt!

[Dave V]

OK, Phil, I see by 1983, it was single-tracked.  That's not a bad thing.  But in PRR daze, I think it was still double.  Ah, the challenge of dual-era.

FWIW, I'm leaning toward changing from a Pennsy layout that's sometimes Conrail to a Conrail layout that's sometimes Pennsy.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Well, if you followed my concept, CR's NCR Line a single track main with a number of controlled sidings. Most of which are in places that you'd be interested in doing, anyway.

It's funny, I drew up a preliminary plan on thursday but haven't had a chance to convert it from a bunch of screen grabs to an actual decent image yet.

[keystonecrossings]

1.  The giant Brunner's Island PP&L coal-fired power plant got 3+ million tons of coal in unit trains.  The spur left the York Haven line just a short distance above Wago Junction, so would connect along the line I would model.  However, 100-car unit coal trains are probably not appropriate for something less than the scale of Todd Treaster's layout...  so might not make the final cut.

Built in early 1960's... too late for you?

3.  The station at Mount Wolf, PA could also be approximated with a kitbashed Atlas Maywood station:




There was a sizable factory with rail service right there by the station.  I have yet to figure out what it was.

I have a list of all the industries along that line... it was considered for my last HO layout. The big factory there made wire screening. They were one of two suppliers to the Pullman Company!

4.  Would like to know...  When was this line single-tracked?  It's tempting to leave it all double-tracked so when I get in the roundy-round mood I can run two trains at once.  However, I understand that single-track operation is more challenging.

From York south, the second track was pulled around 1955. It was still double a bit longer to the north.

[Philip H]

Well, if you followed my concept, CR's NCR Line a single track main with a number of controlled sidings. Most of which are in places that you'd be interested in doing, anyway.

It's funny, I drew up a preliminary plan on thursday but haven't had a chance to convert it from a bunch of screen grabs to an actual decent image yet.

Ed,
Slowing down with the house, huh?     Seriously, I can't wait to see your final plan.  I (and I suspect many others) are a tad jealous of the space.

[Dave V]

Built in early 1960's... too late for you?

Jerry, that's a good point.  It messes with my dual-era.  And, short of a monster basement and gobs of time/cash, probably of a scale too large to do credibly anyway.  The unit trains would only run over the Enola to York Haven section, maybe a third of the line I intend to model.

Ed and I were chatting about a reasonable Conrail-era operating scheme:

1.  One Trailvan each way
2.  One through mixed each way (BAEN/ENBA routed off Port Road to intact NCRR)
3.  Through hoppers to B'more, loads south, empties north
4.  One local each way to switch
5.  Amtrak B'more to H'burg or Buffalo service (I know, totally foobie)
6.  Interchange service to WM/Chessie and what's left of the M&PA at York

This could also translate well to the Pennsy era, which of course has real info available since it was a much more robust concern in the 50s.  The passenger trains include not only the Buffalo/B'more Day Express, but other Blue-Ribbon connections for Harrisburg.

These are the things I want to plan out way ahead of time to dictate things like which industries to include, how much staging do I need, etc.

I'm still leaning toward double track for my roundy-round itch.  

[davefoxx]

Speaking of foobies, does a Conrail-era Tropicana Juice Train get to be diverted on Ed's layout (because of a massive derailment on the B&O's Philly Subdivision OR perhaps Agnes did a number on the B&O's Susquehanna River bridge) up the NCR to Harrisburg, where it would be sent to Philly on the Keystone Corridor?   

DFF