T-Trak T-TRAK question... #4s and crossovers on the main?

[Dave V]

Question regarding the "legality" of using #4s and/or crossovers on T-TRAK modules...on the mains.

Yesterday and online I've had a few people note that my Kato single crossovers and my Kato #4 "homemade" crossovers might be problematic if I ever decided to use these modules in a club layout.

I recognize that when the tracks are wired blue-white-white-blue, I can't use the single crossovers*. No biggie. But I also installed a crossover at Huntingdon using #4s. I was planning on installing a second crossover on the adjacent module, but before I get too far, I want to know if crossovers made with #4s (insulated frog-to-frog of course) are a disqualifier. If they are, I'll remove the existing crossover at Huntingdon and skip the second one.

I did "tune" the #4s by filing away the stock rail where the closure rail meets per the standard guidance. Heretofore I've had zero issue with the #4 crossover at Huntingdon. Yet. But I wouldn't want to have to leave the Huntingdon modules home in a club setup operation (or the LEWIS Interlocking with its pair of Kato single crossovers) because of rules or concerns.

Asking the T-TRAK gurus who know all the rules...thanks!

The #4 crossover in question is under the M1a in this picture:



...and the Kato "single crossover" (I've used two) seen here; the interlocked ones with the concrete ties (which I painted as wood):




*My modules are all wired blue-white (red bus) white-blue (yellow bus) per T-TRAK standards...I just reverse the bus at the DCC command station when I'm running solo.

[Point353]

I recognize that when the tracks are wired blue-white-white-blue, I can't use the single crossovers*.
*My modules are all wired blue-white (red bus) white-blue (yellow bus) per T-TRAK standards...I just reverse the bus at the DCC command station when I'm running solo.

Typically, this issue is addressed at the connection to the power supplies by incorporating a "phaser" - not the Star Trek kind.

The phaser is a DPDT switch used to optionally reverse the polarity of one track to match the other one, depending upon whether the power source will be DC or DCC, or if crossovers will be used.

(Incidentally, the BWWB power connection scheme was originally intended to allow one DC power pack to supply both tracks and still have trains on the two tracks run in opposite directions.)

[Dave V]

So, one point of clarification… I’m not anticipating using the crossovers at shows. They’re just for me personally if I’m switching out the interchange with the Huntingdon & Broad Top RR. During shows I plan to leave them in the straight route position.

I just wanted to make sure their very existence didn’t make my modules incompatible.

[arbomambo]

Please refer to the actual T-TRAK standards document and best practices pages at NRail.org for accurate info.
https://nrail.org/resources/Documents/T-TRAK/T-TRAK%20Standards.pdf
Bookmark this site and especially, the T-TRAK resources section.

The issue with the use of number 4s on the main has nothing to do with opposite polarity, BWWB module wiring, etc. regardless of whether they’re fine-tuned or tweaked for optimal performance.
I has to do with optimal performance of locomotives and rolling stock through the mains, and through the turnouts.
Wire your modules to standard , BWWB, disregard anyone who tells you that you’ll be creating shorts and can’t use them as proper crossovers (READ the resources section about BWWB wiring)
We use nos.6 in the mains AND in our yards for optimal performance during operations sessions.
Also, I would advice purchasing one or two fitted polyester tablecloths (in the size table you use) to display your modules/setup. We, in the greater Southeastern Region of clubs, groups, and individuals, have decided on using black tablecloths for our setups. Your modules are very nice and deserve to be displayed in a more pleasing and profesional manner, especially considering you’ve settled on black fascia.
I would also recommend painting the rear of your skyboards black, as well. This also helos the eye focus on the actual module, scenery, and trains, instead of what’s behind the module.

* about the official standards document I linked: It iss very inclusive and IS the official T-TRAK standards documents, That being said, I have an issue with their use of the word "standard" as it relates to module size and dimensions. I would use the word "typical" and "atypical" when referring to modules widths and depths. to my mind, the use of the word "non-standard" implies a module that is problematic or not correct. Any module that meets the basic T-TRAK standards for track spacing, adjustability in height, Unitrack at the end interfaces, electrical connector-to-bus interface (Kato connectors), and correct wiring (BWWB) qualifies as a 'Standard' module, regardless of depth or width. It may be 'atypical' in that, when using it in an oval, back-to-back setup on a single table, allowances must be made to include 'filler' lengths to balance out an atypical length, or an less deep module may have to be used oppositie it if it is a deeper module, but that doesn't preclude it from being standard.

[Dave V]

Please refer to the actual T-TRAK standards document and best practices pages at NRail.org for accurate info.
https://nrail.org/resources/Documents/T-TRAK/T-TRAK%20Standards.pdf
Bookmark this site and especially, the T-TRAK resources section.

According to that, my mods to the #4s are consistent with the standard. I've yet to have any issues with the crossover at Huntingdon.

All of the other turnouts--the spur to the paper factory and the siding representing the H&BT interchange--are #6s. I went with the #4 crossovers at Huntingdon because of tie spacing... I have some concrete tie modules (painted as wood) and some regular Unitrack modules, but I insist on keeping all the ties the same spacing on the same module. No mixes of tie spacing on a single module.

I don't expect or intend to use the crossovers at a show. This was mainly to understand whether I'd disqualified my modules from integrating into other setups merely by having them at all. 95% of the time at home and 100% of the time at shows, they'll be aligned for the straight route.

Yes to the tablecloth! As for the skyboards, I had thought about painting the backside the same sky blue as the front side.

[arbomambo]

“According to that, my mods to the #4s are consistent with the standard. I've yet to have any issues with the crossover at Huntingdon.”






“Yes to the tablecloth! As for the skyboards, I had thought about painting the backside the same sky blue as the front side.”

We had also painted the rear of our skyboards blue, then determined that black worked better for us in the same manner that black tablecloths and black fascia focused the eye on the module.

[Dave V]

@arbomambo Bruce, rather than being cryptic, just tell me.

Those standards you sent said that if Kato #4s are used, you have to modify them for smooth operation...referring to a YouTube video that says to notch the stock rail and round the point rails.  EDIT: OK, I see that the #4s are under "yard modules."

So you're saying instead that I need to pull those #4s out at Huntingdon, correct? Because they're on the mains?

[Chris333]

Think he said your few little modules are cute. 

[Dave V]

You know what? I think I will pull those #4s. Setting aside the T-TRAK recommended practices, there are two other issues:

1) The position of the switch on the westbound main is such that it's right against the station platform. Very hard to actuate without bumping fine details.

2) There was no such crossover in front of the real Huntingdon depot. I had the idea to throw that in there after I'd planned the modules so that I could conceivably work the H&BT interchange from the westbound track.

Am I really going to use that crossover? Choo-choo go in circles. Nope. Maybe on a rare occasion at home, but never at a show.

I was about to start placing hairpin fencing between the mains as was PRR practice and realized that my unprototypical crossover also messes with that.

The question is now moot...the #4s come out and the other #4s don't go in. Done.

[Point353]

I think I will pull those #4s.

How to make a #6 crossover with 33mm track spacing:

[mkearns]

@Dave V if some evolved thinking has led you to decide to remove the 4s then so be it. Moot point.

I’m no authority but I would say one of the reasons for some of the perceived ambiguity is that there is a standard (track spacing, connections, wiring) and there are recommended practices (everything else).

#4s aren’t recommended, but when used it is recommended to modify them as you have.

I would say that using #4s wouldn’t automatically disqualify your module, just like if someone uses #6s then it wouldn’t just automatically “qualify” their module. Maybe their trackwork is atrocious, with poor joints or sloppy ballast derailing everything that passes by.

At the end of the day, if your modules work then they work. Any compatibility issues are resolved by the folks hooking up their modules and running equipment together. We’ve had to pull “standard” modules that for some reason didn’t want to play nice with the other modules and we’ve had to pull equipment that kept having trouble.

If someone doesn’t want to plug into your modules, find a better group of friends.

[Dave V]

Simple's usually better.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I think you need to stop obsessing about what's "legal" in T-TRAK.

I've never seen anyone going around issuing citations.

In fact, I just recently put on a show that had modules that had, gasp, ATLAS CODE 55 TRACK.

I guess the N-Rail undercover agents didn't make it to MARPM.

[Dave V]

I think you need to stop obsessing about what's "legal" in T-TRAK.

I've never seen anyone going around issuing citations.

In fact, I just recently put on a show that had modules that had, gasp, ATLAS CODE 55 TRACK.

I guess the N-Rail undercover agents didn't make it to MARPM.

I appreciate that. I do think there are some more practical reasons to pull those #4s out as mentioned over in my engineering thread.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I appreciate that. I do think there are some more practical reasons to pull those #4s out as mentioned over in my engineering thread.

Yeah. If they're causing problems, definitely do it. But I wouldn't worry about the "legality" of them. T-TRAK is, after all, based on the 33mm geometry that those #4s slot into (while, weirdly, the #6s don't).