Author Topic: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help  (Read 2250 times)

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mike_lawyer

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Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« on: October 27, 2022, 08:51:58 PM »
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Hey guys -

I am back to building Fast Tracks turnouts, and I realize that I have two issues that I could use some tips to remedy.  First, I am having trouble making really nice frog points.  I am using the number 7 turnout jig and filing.  I also have a frog helper, and I place the two rails so they just touch, as recommended in the Fast Tracks videos, but I still can't get nice points.

The other issue I am having is trying to figure out the placement of the frog.  On the one hand, you can place the frog too far away from wing rails so that wheels kind of "fall" into the frog area.  On the other hand, you can place the frog too far forward toward the wing rails.  Does anyone have any tips to get the placement of the frog just right? 

Any help here would be much appreciated.  I can assemble everything else using the jigs really well, but the frog always is difficulty for me.

Mike
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 09:05:30 PM by mike_lawyer »

mmagliaro

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2022, 09:47:30 PM »
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I would need to see photos to understand by what you mean by not getting "really nice" points.

As for the positioning, have you seen this?

It's installment 8 of a multi-part video series that FastTracks has on youtube.  They are REALLY helpful.

mike_lawyer

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2022, 11:38:04 PM »
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Max -

Thanks for the video, I remember watching those a while ago and had forgotten about them.  Great info there.

One thing I wish is if Fastracks made their jigs a little bit wider beyond the frog area.  In N scale, there isn't much space on the jig for the rails beyond the last 2 PCB ties.  In HO, there is more room on the jigs.  I think the extra room on the jig is very helpful for precise locating for the frog.

bbussey

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2022, 01:10:33 AM »
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I've never had a problem using the jigs, as it takes the random human element out of it for the most.  If I'm not using a jig, I build the turnout over one of the Fast Tracks templates.  With the points tool and a fixture or paper template, there shouldn't be much difficulty in forming a workable frog point.
Bryan Busséy
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robert3985

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2022, 05:20:05 AM »
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I've never used Fast Tracks jigs, fixture, tools or soldering equipment.  However, I've built at least 1000+ N-scale turnouts using paper templates taped to my drafting table.

I decided to watch some of the videos that Fast Tracks provides which are instructional in the use of their products.

If you follow Fast Tracks instructions and construction methodology precisely for making points and installing them, you shouldn't have any problems.

HOWEVER, if you're having problems with constructing the points, even using their nifty "Frog Helper", I'm going to suggest that you are probably having problems with your soldering technique.

Since you haven't provided photos of what you consider to be "really nice frog points" I'm going to assume the problem is that the two frog point halves are not soldering up with a nearly indiscernible seam running down the middle...that really should be filled with solder and filed flat.  If this is the case, then there could be multiple reasons why this is happening, but I'll explain what I would do to make sure I have "really nice frog points".

(1) Make sure that before you mount your rails in either the Filing Jig, or the Frog Helper, that the fixtures are CLEAN, dust-free, with no filings or metal powders in them or on them either on flat surfaces or in any of the slots.

(2) Make sure that your rails are also clean, with no burrs, no filing dust, no cobwebs or spider's nests anywhere on them.

(3) Make sure the rails, when placed in the Filing Jig, are properly in place so that the filed surface you're about to create is at a right angle to the railfoot...AND...that the exposed parts of the rails are long enough so that the filed surface will bring both rails to a sharp point...like dangerously sharp.

(4) After your remove your rails from the Filing Jig, make sure any burrs are completely removed from the filed rails.  Inspect the two rails points you've just filed and make sure the filed surface is flat and the tips of the rails are sharp.

(5) Before you insert your rails into the Frog Helper, make sure that the Frog Helper is CLEAN, dust-free, with no filing chips, metal powders or anything else on it...especially in the slots.

(6) Before you insert your rails into the Frog Helper, clean the filed surfaces and surrounding rail areas with Heptane (Bestine) to remove any oils or waxes from what you're about to solder.

(7) Insert the rails into the Frog Helper, making sure that the filed surfaces mate up perfectly, with no space between them, but also with no excessive pressure, which will bow the rails.  You want straight rails, tips exactly even, and zero space between the angled surfaces you've just made with your Filing Jig.  Don't touch any of the rail surfaces you are about to solder. Tape the rails down, making sure their bases are flatly seated on the slot bottoms.

( 8 )  Inspect your soldering iron.  It should be fully hot (at least a 35W iron) with a clean, bright tip that is tinned.  If not, fix the problem right now.

(9) Apply your flux to the top of the rails right at the joint above the two mated surfaces you've just filed (just like in the Fast Tracks video).

(10) Lightly, but steadily hit both rails at their mated railheads and watch the flux melt into the joint (just like in the video).

(11) Apply your solder while lightly and steadily touching both rails with your iron.  Ideally, you should touch both rails AND the tip of your iron at the same time, but keeping your iron on your rails will heat both of them up enough so that the solder flows into the joint, completely filling it up.

(12) Where you want to make sure your rails are soldered together is the very tip, but let the solder flow there, don't touch it with your iron.  You can make the solder flow both ways along the joint by moving it slowly while keeping contact with both rails.  Make a solder fillet on the portion of your rails where they're touching furthest from the tip of the point.

(13) Remove your iron and let your newly created frog point cool to the touch

(14) After the assembly as cooled, inspect it to make sure the joint is fully filled by looking at the tip, the top and the bottom.  There should be no gaps in your solder in the joint.  If not, replace the assembly into your Frog Helper, tape it down again, apply flux, heat it up and watch the solder flow.  This may take a bit of time...don't be impatient and don't worry about overheating anything.  Remove after cooling, inspect and you should be okay.

(15) The video recommends you file the top of the your frog point assembly at this time, by holding it in your hand and filing.  I would place it on a hard, flat surface and file it that way with your new, sharp bastard file, making sure that the file is parallel to your railheads by resting it lightly on the diverging "Y" the assembly forms.  Frankly, I wait until my turnouts are assembled before I file the frog top flat.  This evens the whole frog area up and ensures my file is flat in relation to the railheads.

(16) As for aligning, I do it by gauging the check gauge on both sides of the frog point as is demonstrated in the video with my NMRA N Standards Gauge.  If I have problems with an engine going through the frog after the turnout is installed, then it is always the wheel gauge on that engine that's the problem.

That should about do it.  Look at the videos and follow their instructions, and you should be fine as long as your soldering technique is good.

I build my turnouts slightly differently, but Fast Tracks will give you a functional, robust turnout...and fairly good looking too.

As always, I highly recommend Superior No.30 Supersafe Soldering Flux...it is THE VERY BEST...used with 96/4 Tin/Silver coreless Silver-bearing solder, both of which can be purchased here: https://www.hnflux.com/page22.html

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

pedro

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2022, 06:00:23 AM »
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I’ll reiterate Bob’s point #3 above, in that the point of the frog has to be very sharp. I had the exact problems you’re describing at first but found I wasn’t making my frog points sharp enough. Make sure you’re exposing enough rail in the point form when you start to file. Those points should be paper-thin. After removal from the point form,  I dress/clean the filed parts of the rails with 400 grit and examine them under magnification. Just keep at it!

mike_lawyer

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2022, 07:44:23 AM »
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I’ll reiterate Bob’s point #3 above, in that the point of the frog has to be very sharp. I had the exact problems you’re describing at first but found I wasn’t making my frog points sharp enough. Make sure you’re exposing enough rail in the point form when you start to file. Those points should be paper-thin. After removal from the point form,  I dress/clean the filed parts of the rails with 400 grit and examine them under magnification. Just keep at it!

With regard to where the rail is located in the point form tool, I am setting it so that the rail head is just level with the tool, like they show in the videos.  Should I expose more rail to make a finer point?  I will have to keep practicing!

Thanks for all the tips guys, great stuff!

Chris333

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2022, 07:49:54 AM »
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Yeah the frog point will be like the sharpest needle you've ever seen that can almost bend by blowing on it. Once you get 2 together and solder them they will get stronger.

Sokramiketes

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2022, 01:32:57 PM »
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Said another way, the sharper you can file the point, the further into the frog it can be inserted, and the less likely it is for a wheelset to drop in.

Using a track gauge can help you find the ideal location that the point should be starting.  Measured from the already laid stock rails inward.  This location is not usually marked on the jigs, but I tend to scribe a line to help my eye calibrate later. 

crrcoal

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2022, 07:13:30 PM »
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As always, I highly recommend Superior No.30 Supersafe Soldering Flux...it is THE VERY BEST...used with 96/4 Tin/Silver coreless Silver-bearing solder, both of which can be purchased here: https://www.hnflux.com/page22.html

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

Bob do you prefer the liquid, gel or paste No 30 flux?
Thanks! Andy

mike_lawyer

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2022, 08:25:31 PM »
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Said another way, the sharper you can file the point, the further into the frog it can be inserted, and the less likely it is for a wheelset to drop in.

Using a track gauge can help you find the ideal location that the point should be starting.  Measured from the already laid stock rails inward.  This location is not usually marked on the jigs, but I tend to scribe a line to help my eye calibrate later.

Good call on using an NMRA gauge to find where the point of the frog should ideally be located.  I intend to scribe a line on the jig to mark the location.

reinhardtjh

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2022, 10:36:37 PM »
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Bob do you prefer the liquid, gel or paste No 30 flux?
Thanks! Andy

Unless you plan on using it fast (relatively) don't get the gel.  After a year or so it turns to liquid.  It works just as good, it's just not a gel any more.  I don't know about the paste.  Bob has had the same happen with the gel, too.
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peteski

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2022, 11:13:17 PM »
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Unless you plan on using it fast (relatively) don't get the gel.  After a year or so it turns to liquid.  It works just as good, it's just not a gel any more.  I don't know about the paste.  Bob has had the same happen with the gel, too.

Me too. My gel is now liquid.
. . . 42 . . .

nkalanaga

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2022, 01:31:26 AM »
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I don't know about your brand, but I have some Radio Shack paste flux that I've been using for close to 40 years.  It doesn't seem to have changed at all during that time.
N Kalanaga
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robert3985

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Re: Fast Track Turnout Frog Help
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2022, 03:14:32 AM »
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Bob do you prefer the liquid, gel or paste No 30 flux?
Thanks! Andy

I used to buy the gel, but after a year or two, it becomes liquid.  It works equally well in both gel and liquid state...so, if I were to buy more, I would opt for the liquid.

In addition to a bottle of the liquid No.30 Supersafe Flux, I would also order one or two small dispensing bottles that have a short piece of Teflon tubing to insert into them.  I use an "L" shaped piece of stainless wire to plug the tubing when not in use.  Rotate it and it comes right out when you need to flux.  For precise flux application, I use a cheap, small pointed watercolor brush, which I rinse out after each soldering session.

I also like their non-lead tip-tinner.  I buy two of the smaller tins at a time since their size is more convenient for my solder stand.

For cleaning up sloppy blobs of solder, I use several sizes of non-fluxed braided copper wick.  I haven't used what H&N offers, but it might not be a bad idea to get a roll of it (unfluxed) if you don't have any. Just dip the unfluxed de-soldering wick into your Supersafe liquid flux right before you use it to suck up excess solder.  Works great.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore