Author Topic: Big boys  (Read 2313 times)

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Point353

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2021, 06:59:26 AM »
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Tender?  Why would they put a motor in the tender?  To me it means that each of the loco's engines will be powered by its own motor (both motors in the boiler).  Just like the real loco.
Would a coreless motor - such as Kato has been using in some of their recent locos - be small enough to fit in/on each of the two trucks/engines of the loco?

w neal

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2021, 09:52:12 AM »
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If Kato is developing one, I'll wait. I feel their overall quality justifies the wait. The running quality of the FEF. 'Nuff said.

It was several years wait for the Olympian too. It was even dropped once. But the end product was worth the wait.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 09:55:10 AM by w neal »
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peteski

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2021, 10:46:59 AM »
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Would a coreless motor - such as Kato has been using in some of their recent locos - be small enough to fit in/on each of the two trucks/engines of the loco?

It should.
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learmoia

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2021, 12:34:00 PM »
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Tender?  Why would they put a motor in the tender?  To me it means that each of the loco's engines will be powered by its own motor (both motors in the boiler).  Just like the real loco.

The real Big Boy is powered by 2 motors?  :trollface:

While a nice gimmick, I really don't see the point (at least in N scale).  All the N scale locos I have ever dealt with are light enough that they can slip their wheels even when powered by a single motor. Adding another motor will not make any difference in the pulling ability. Instead of adding another motor, fill that space with lead (or tungsten, like Dapol does in some of their locos).

If the point is making a Big Boy that can pull a prototype length train.. Like you said.. a 2nd motor in the boiler is going to reduce the weight and pulling power..

1 motor in the boiler powering 8 axles will pull a decent amount.

But 1 motor in the boiler powering 8 axles and another motor in the tender powering 4 or 5 more is effectively adding an F7 behind your Big-Boy.. 

No matter what they do... it will operate circles around the Athearn or Con-Cor models.
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nickelplate759

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2021, 02:00:27 PM »
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Hmm - one motor on each engine has its advantages:

1. the drive train itself doesn't need to be articulated - the motor positions can be fixed to each engine's frame.  That's a big plus.
2.  the motors themselves can be smaller than the one motor that would be required for a single-motor drive.  That said, the two motors together probably take more space than the single large one.
3.  the engines can and will slip independently, just like a real articulated loco.  This would be cool to see, as long as it doesn't happen too often.  If the engine has sound then hearing the slipping, and the engines moving in and out of sync, will be even cooler.

Yes, there are challenges to pulling this off (for example, would you want to have 2 DCC controllers, or a special dual-motor DCC controller?) but it's a good idea, and has certainly been done in larger scales.
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peteski

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2021, 04:12:46 PM »
+2
You can run 2 identical motors using single decoder, but it is not optimal (especially if they are not tied mechanically and one starts slipping).  I still say that in N scale this sounds gimmicky, and is an overkill. Solution looking for a problem.
Mechanism articulation has not been a problem (since every dual-truck diesel or electric locs, and articulated steam locos have been using it since the beginning of N scale).
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narrowminded

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2021, 03:50:26 AM »
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This is tempting as I have a soft spot for Alco, an even softer spot for steam, and BIG steam, ohhh :drool:... give me a minute.  But that's a lot of money. :|
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ek2000

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2021, 12:02:37 PM »
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Received mine today. The "freshly shopped" look is gorgeous. The motor is a bit too noisy, almost sounds like a small traction motor. The bachmann em1 as an example to compare to is silky smooth and can hardly be heard with the sound turned off. Not sure if this is how athearn motors come in the big boy.

Nato

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2021, 03:42:52 PM »
+1
                :| We must remember that KATO will probably do the 4014 excursion version first since the tender with the modern oil bunker arrangement from the 844 can be used, very similar to Big Boy tenders. However if they do other Big Boys, coal fired versions they will have to modify their tender to a coal version, and to do correct FEF3's as oil burners the old style original oil bunkers should be used in the tenders, not easy to do on KATO's model unlike Athearns' tenders' where the coal load removes and and an oil bunker is inserted. I have to agree the two motor idea KATO has is interesting , but would cause huge problems for DCC. Nate Goodman. (Nato).   :|

Jbub

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2021, 04:53:09 PM »
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You can run 2 identical motors using single decoder, but it is not optimal (especially if they are not tied mechanically and one starts slipping).  I still say that in N scale this sounds gimmicky, and is an overkill. Solution looking for a problem.
Mechanism articulation has not been a problem (since every dual-truck diesel or electric locs, and articulated steam locos have been using it since the beginning of N scale).
I think you may missing the point. I'm guessing the two motors is not to increase tractive effort but to add the realism of two engines slipping away from each other. If you watch videos of the prototype, the front and rear engine are rarely in sync with each other. That may be overkill, but a nice detail to model. I wish the Pennsy T1 had two motors so the front engine can just get away from the rear.
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peteski

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2021, 08:45:11 PM »
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I think you may missing the point. I'm guessing the two motors is not to increase tractive effort but to add the realism of two engines slipping away from each other. If you watch videos of the prototype, the front and rear engine are rarely in sync with each other. That may be overkill, but a nice detail to model. I wish the Pennsy T1 had two motors so the front engine can just get away from the rear.

I'm aware of the slipping "feature".
I still say it will be a silly gimmick which will make these more difficult to "decoderize", and likely decrease their puling ability (motor is likely lighter than equivalent weight inside the boiler).

To clarify, 1:1 loco's engines are rarely in since with each other, but they aren't constantly slipping either.  They are just off by certain number of degrees and stay that way. Other (single-motor) models of articulated locos have engines not in sync.  And in N scale I don't think that slippage will occur very often either.  Again - a gimmick.
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wcfn100

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2021, 09:01:11 PM »
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They are just off by certain number of degrees and stay that way.



Jump to 31 seconds.

Jason

basementcalling

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2021, 11:22:40 PM »
+1
Given their history, I would not expect Kato to offer as many variations as Athearn on their Big Boys. Their FEF Northerns are amazing, but its a 1 size fits all model despite the now "freight scheme" paint job of later runs. Kato isn't going to let a model for their North American line hog resources they dedicate to their European and Japanese lines of production, which remain their major money makers.

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peteski

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2021, 12:58:05 AM »
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Jump to 31 seconds.

Jason

I understand Jason. But I just don't see an N scale loco on N scale track doing this, unless maybe you grease the track under one of the engines, or there is some seriously badly laid track under it.  Or you are using 2 decoders with badly mismatched speeds. I still don't get the need to do this in N scale.  But I'm sure it'll be big selling point (especially in Japan): each engine powered independently - just like the "real" Big-Boy.  :|
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u18b

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Re: Big boys
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2021, 01:51:24 AM »
+1
I'm not a fan at all of dual motors.   The three biggest examples I'm intimately acquainted with are:
Kumata brass EP-2.
Kumata brass Centipede.
OMI brass Little Joe.

I have spent countless hours improving each one of those.  And every one of the examples I've worked with above ran terribly.  Unless the two motors run at exactly the same speed, the loco will be noisier than a one motor loco (sometime MUCH noisier). 

But motors do not generally run the same speed.  And even don't run the same speed in both directions.

I was able to greatly (though not perfectly) overcome this with my re-designed brass EP-2s by placing TWO decoders in the loco (one decoder per motor).  Since the EP-2 was effectively two cabs, I treated each as a separate loco and speed matched them in DCC.

Will you be able to do this in a Big Boy between the boiler and the tender?

If there is only one decoder, I'm doubtful you will be able to quiet down a noisier than desired Big Boy.

Furthermore.... if the motors are matched badly enough that there is indeed slipping (which I have seen in all of the above examples) the loco cannot even pull ITSELF- much less a bunch of cars.

This is what you can get in a worst case.....
(just watch the first 30 seconds)

« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 02:01:24 AM by u18b »
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