Digitrax Zephyr Express... Right for me?

[Dave V]

I've been a Digitrax user since 2005.  My current layout, a 12 x 14 HOn3 single-deck layout, uses an ancient Digitrax Super Empire Builder set.  However, one of the main disadvantages of that old system is that it doesn't do CV readback.  As I'm acquiring new sound-equipped locomotives with full digital dynamic effects, I frequently need to know how the 200+ CVs on my other engines are set.

I did rig up a JMRI Pro interface and downloaded what I thought were all the CV settings on one of engines that I had "tuned just right" but when I went to pass them on to the next loco, JMRI saw some CVs as factory default when I know (and could tell through operation) that I'd modified them.  That issue aside (and that'd not what I'm seeking advice for here), I'd like a much faster, more intuitive way to do CV readback.  Additionally, the DB150 has been getting slightly glitchy over the 14 years it's served me.  It's still reliable enough, but the combo of that plus CV readback has me thinking about a new system.

http://www.digitrax.com/products/starter-sets/dcs52/

So...  My system uses a 5 amp power supply.  The Zephyr comes with--and requires--a 3 amp supply.  For 12 x 14, s that enough?  While I'm never running more than 4 locos at once, I'm also juicing all my turnout frogs.  I also have a turntable with a motor and decoder.  I know the Super Empire Builder was way more than I really needed for the HCD N scale Juniata Division and it handles the HOn3 RGS, but I'm wondering of the Zephyr Express will support my layout.

FWIW, the layout is all one block or district.  I have shorts and derailments infrequently enough that that works better for me.  I don't have a real desire to subdivide the layout into districts.

Thanks for any advice you can give!

[learmoia]

The main challenge of Digitrax sound programming is the amount of Power that Digitrax sends to the programming track is not enough to 'wakeup' the sound decoder. 

(You would need a Programming Track Booster to solve this.. )

OR.. do Ops mode programming.

You could setup an isolsted programming track feeding off the main power with a giant 'ON/OFF' switch for the rest of the railroad.

(Or use a second command station with the JMRI interface to do your sound programming.

NCE sends a higher voltage to the programming track so it's not an issue.

[learmoia]

As far as sub dividing layout and handling sound locomotives.. Digitrax (was) notoriously bad at handling multiple sound locomotives.. as it sees the initial current drain of the capacitors charging as a dead short..

So when you have a short.. the system trips, but wont come back without a hard OFF/ON of track power..

There are some rudimentary methods of solving this with auto headlight bulbs..  (I believe this only affected the Super Chief but not the booster.)
You could also use your Zephyr/Chief to command station the empire builder (as a booster) and use the Empire builder to supply track power.

You shouldnt need to subdivide the layout.. (except maybe the roundhouse so you dont have the Short Reset current draw of the locomotives sitting and not running)

~Ian

[learmoia]

Another thought.. If you did the Zephyr Command to Empire Booster to getaround the short issue.... The Zepher could power the Ops Mode Programming track only, and the Booster runs the rest of the layout.  (Turn off the booster when programming)

~Ian

[Dave V]

Thanks for your replies...  I'm not 100% sure I'm tracking here though...  Let me work backward from your posts, most recent first.

With a minor short, yes, the system comes right back.  This isn't an issue.  I'm not sure where you're seeing that problem, but the only time my Digitrax system won't restart itself is if the short persists...in which case that's exactly what it's designed to do.  This is not a concern for me in this decision process.

I do have a programming track designed exactly as you describe.  It's the spur at Placerville.  There's a big honking green "ON/OFF" switch for the rest of the track. Also not a concern.  That I can't immediately hear the sound effect change until I turn track power back on is mildly annoying, but not enough to drive me away from Digitrax.

I'm not a fan of NCE.  Our club uses it and everyone says how awesome it is but it strikes me as way glitchier than even my 14-year-old Digitrax system.  I'm not switching from Digitrax as I have a full Loconet installed all over the layout with 7 different Loconet throttle jacks.

The question I'm asking is whether the Digitrax Zephyr Express has sufficient power and current for what I'm doing.  I'm not even remotely entertaining any suggestion that I switch systems.  If the consensus is no, my plan is to continue what I'm doing and until the DB150 finally poops the proverbial bed.

Another thought.. If you did the Zephyr Command to Empire Booster to getaround the short issue.... The Zepher could power the Ops Mode Programming track only, and the Booster runs the rest of the layout.  (Turn off the booster when programming)

~Ian

Now THAT might work!

I have to ask... You keep referring to a "short issue."  What short issue?  I stated that I have shorts so infrequently that districting doesn't make sense.  Generally if I do have a short it's because I did stupid, like didn't properly rail the trailing truck on the K-27.  I have yet, since I built the layout, to encounter a short that didn't make obvious sense when found.

One thing I don't have to overcome is bad trackwork.  The RGS can run by itself for hours without short, stall, or derailment.

[learmoia]

You wont notice the short issue until you get 2-3 sound locos in the same booster at the same time.. (and maybe Digitrax finally fixed the issue) and I think its unique to the Super Chief.. So you may not notice it with a Zephyr or Empire Builder.

If your doing Ops mode Programming.. your programming the locomotive with live track power ...sound loco would be running the whole time... like your running the layout (not through the programming track outputs on the Zephyr).

The biggest issue with Ops mode.. Is you need to know the address.. since your directing the commands to Loco #### (likely 03 until you change the #).. so if you have multiple 03s on the layout, the all get programmed (which is why the on off switch is important)..

But the program track booster may be the better option.. for address recovery and things like that.

~Ian

~Ian

[Dave V]

You wont notice the short issue until you get 2-3 sound locos in the same booster at the same time.. (and maybe Digitrax finally fixed the issue) and I think its unique to the Super Chief.. So you may not notice it with a Zephyr or Empire Builder.

If your doing Ops mode Programming.. your programming the locomotive with live track power ...sound loco would be running the whole time... like your running the layout (not through the programming track outputs on the Zephyr).

The biggest issue with Ops mode.. Is you need to know the address.. since your directing the commands to Loco #### (likely 03 until you change the #).. so if you have multiple 03s on the layout, the all get programmed (which is why the on off switch is important)..

But the program track booster may be the better option.. for address recovery and things like that.

~Ian

~Ian

Ian,

I appreciate your help, but I'm still not understanding the "short issue."  I've not experienced what you've described.

[learmoia]

If you haven't noticed it,  dont worry about it..
 
~Ian

[Dave V]

If you haven't noticed it,  dont worry about it..
 
~Ian

FWIW, I routinely have--in clear defiance of the prototype--three trains running around at once with one of them having a rear-end helper, all sound, and no shorts as a result.  I didn't even know that was a thing.

[learmoia]

Here is a good description and history of what I'm referring to.

https://tonystrains.com/news/a-brief-history-in-dcc-inrush-current/

With new decoders and DCC systems.. it may be fixed.. ~Ian

[Dave V]

Here is a good description and history of what I'm referring to.

https://tonystrains.com/news/a-brief-history-in-dcc-inrush-current/

With new decoders and DCC systems.. it may be fixed.. ~Ian

Oh, okay...  Yeah!  I had minor issues like that with my BLI M1s, but I was told it was because the wide wheel treads were bridging frog gaps, and that made sense to me at the time.  And you're right, those BLI decoders took a tremendous amount of power to fire up...and if I were running two of them plus a pair of Bachmann K4s, it was a challenge.  I did have occasional momentary shorts on the Juniata Division.  I blamed the engines, not the system.

Today, with the exception of the Galloping Goose, all of my locomotives use Tsunami or Tsunami 2 decoders.  They have a very, very low starting voltage.  So that's probably why I've never encountered this issue on the RGS.

Now it makes sense.  I would imagine the updated Zephyr plus the more modern, sophisticated Soundtraxx decoders obviates the problem.

Ideally I'd like to use a single booster for all purposes.  So I'm left to wonder of the new Zephyr Express will suffice.

[learmoia]

The initial shorts may be equipment/track related, but the failure to restore power was likely system related..

~Ian

[Dave V]

The initial shorts may be equipment/track related, but the failure to restore power was likely system related..

~Ian

If I think back to when I first started running the BLI engines...OK.  Yes.  I can remember at least once when I couldn't get the system back and I thought it was dead.  I hadn't put two and two together on that.  The DB150 was being phased out when I bought it in 2005, so I'm not surprised that it couldn't handle sound systems a decade later.

Fortunately that has not once occurred on the RGS...unless I just jinxed myself.

[learmoia]

Fortunately that has not once occurred on the RGS...unless I just jinxed myself.

If you've been running 3-4 sound units on the RGS and gone through a short and auto recovery worked.. you should be fine..

If you jump to 7-8+ sound locos on the layout and start to notice issues like you had on the Juniata.. then start to look at ways to reduce the qty of non operating sound units getting track power.. (down to the 3-4, 5, 6? per booster that you know works.)

Either by districting the layout to divide the load across multiple boosters, or have a shutoff switch the locomotive storage tracks so they aren't drawing power while your are running trains.

~Ian

[reinhardtjh]

The main challenge of Digitrax sound programming is the amount of Power that Digitrax sends to the programming track is not enough to 'wakeup' the sound decoder. 

(You would need a Programming Track Booster to solve this.. )

The two previous versions of the Zephyr (DCS50 & DCS51) have included a undocumented "Blast Mode" for programming which outputs with an increased current capacity and can usually handle sound decoders.  I haven't seen where the new version (DCS52) includes this, but I don't expect that Digitrax would remove it as it is very handy.

Here is Digitrax KB33: Programming Soundtraxx Tsunami Decoders with Digitrax Zephyr which references Blast Mode.  It hasn't been updated since 2014 so only mentions the DCS510 and DCS51. I haven't found anything yet that indicates the DCS52 has this.

Nothing direct from Digitrax so far but I did find this page which has a pretty good chart showing the capabilities of Digitrax command stations and boosters:

    Fritz's DCC Notes -->http://www.fritzmilhaupt.com/dcc/digitraxcommandstations.html

One of the notes to the chart indicates:

Increased power output to the programming track makes it easier to program sound decoders and decoders with "keep alive" circuitry. On the DCS50 and DCS51 this is accompished using "Blast Mode". On the DCS52, DCS210 and DCS240, this is standard behavior on the programming track.