Author Topic: Frog Juicer Issues  (Read 848 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

davefoxx

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8230
  • Gender: Male
  • "I like trains!"
  • Respect: +1667
Frog Juicer Issues
« on: July 11, 2019, 10:20:16 PM »
0
I installed my new Dual Frog Juicer tonight to replace my Digitrax AR1.  Two issues have occurred:

1) The Dual Frog Juicer seems to work, and I successfully have run a locomotive around the wye.  But, to do this, I had to disconnect the frogs in the adjacent turnouts from a Hex Frog Juicer.  The locomotive would short the layout as soon as the engine hit a frog.  How do I fix that, if I want to keep my powered frogs?

2) The Dual Frog Juicer buzzes.  I have never seen a Juicer make any noise.  It sounds like it’s surging about every second: “Buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz . . . .”  Anyone else know if this is somehow normal?

Thanks,
DFF

General Counsel to the Laurel Valley Ry.
Member: ACL/SAL Historical Society
A Proud HOer

Dave V

  • Global Moderator
  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8554
  • Gender: Male
  • The Route of the Galloping Goose
  • Respect: +3395
    • Dave Vollmer's N Scale Pennsy
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2019, 10:38:35 PM »
0
Check the wiring diagram.  You have to change the jumpers in a few places to use it as an auto-reverser.  I had to do this to use one to power my turntable bridge.

Can't speak to the buzzing though...
Silver San Juan Scenic Line

Member SlimRail Modular Colorado Narrow Gauge
http://www.slimrail.net/

davefoxx

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8230
  • Gender: Male
  • "I like trains!"
  • Respect: +1667
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2019, 11:17:01 PM »
0
I moved the jumper to use the juicer as an auto-reverser.  I also used the jumpers to bump the current change point from two amps up to four amps, since my DCC system is in excess of five amps.  I also pulled those two jumpers reverting to two amps as part of the troubleshooting.  Didn’t make any change.  Only way to correct the problem was to disconnect the neighboring frogs from the Hex Frog Juicer.  I’m guessing that I need to figure out a way to alter the speed of the polarity change, so that the Dual Frog Juicer is not competing with the Hex Frog Juicer.

DFF

General Counsel to the Laurel Valley Ry.
Member: ACL/SAL Historical Society
A Proud HOer

RBrodzinsky

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 768
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +228
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2019, 12:19:11 AM »
0
Set the trip current for the ones you want to change first to a lower value. Are the frogs inside the reversing section? If so, make sure they are fed from the reverser output.
Rick Brodzinsky
Chief Engineer - JACALAR Railroad
Silicon Valley FreeMo-N

Maletrain

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1039
  • Respect: +112
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2019, 09:40:27 AM »
0
A small wye with Frog Juicers on the wye legs and the turnout frogs is a lot of complication in a small space.  So, just checking for a brain-fart problem: are you sure that there is not any section of rail where a locomotive can effectively bridge whatever gap there is between one frog juicer and another, either both on one board or between the two boards?  And, also check that there is not any place where two reverser circuits are not even isolated from each other. 

davefoxx

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8230
  • Gender: Male
  • "I like trains!"
  • Respect: +1667
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2019, 10:52:17 AM »
0
@Maletrain,

Obviously something is wrong, so I'm not sure I can affirmatively answer the question.  But, I know that the frogs are powered by three separate juicers within one Hex Frog Juicer.  They worked perfectly for probably two years until I took the AR1 out and added the Dual Frog Juicer in its place.  The wye is controlled by that entirely separate Dual Frog Juicer.  The only connection between the Hex Frog Juicer and the Dual Frog Juicer is that they are both connected to the DCC bus.  The short only happens when the locomotive contacts a frog and not when it contacts an insulated joint as it circumnavigates the wye.

I think the Dual Frog Juicer is working (since the locomotive can get around the wye without shorting the layout) but for that annoying buzz that exists under the layout now.  :|  I'm guessing that the problem is that the juicers are competing with each other and can't get out of each others' way to allow the polarity to correct.

DFF

General Counsel to the Laurel Valley Ry.
Member: ACL/SAL Historical Society
A Proud HOer

Dave V

  • Global Moderator
  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8554
  • Gender: Male
  • The Route of the Galloping Goose
  • Respect: +3395
    • Dave Vollmer's N Scale Pennsy
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 11:03:00 AM »
0
Without having a good mental picture of what's going on here, is there any chance you can have a short stretch of track (only needs to be of the order on an inch or three) between the turnout and the start of the reversing section?  Insulated from the turnout frog, of course, but connected to the DCC bus.  Then have the gaps for the reversing section just beyond that section.

I apologize if I'm not picturing your setup properly.
Silver San Juan Scenic Line

Member SlimRail Modular Colorado Narrow Gauge
http://www.slimrail.net/

davefoxx

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8230
  • Gender: Male
  • "I like trains!"
  • Respect: +1667
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2019, 11:26:59 AM »
0
No need to apologize, Dave.  It's almost impossible to understand the wiring of someone else's layout without detailed descriptions and photos.  All I know is that the wiring has not been changed other than I removed the AR1 and installed the Dual Frog Juicer in its place.  So the actual wiring of the wye would not seem to be the problem.  If the frogs are disconnected from the Hex Frog Juicer, there's no shorts, and the locomotive can run around the wye.

I just emailed this dilemma to Tam Valley.  I'll post any response.

Thanks,
DFF

The irony here is that the Digitrax AR1 (which everyone here, except @mu26aeh, wants to blend) worked, but the Dual Frog Juicer does not.   :P
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 11:29:42 AM by davefoxx »

General Counsel to the Laurel Valley Ry.
Member: ACL/SAL Historical Society
A Proud HOer

mu26aeh

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 2971
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +789
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2019, 11:32:53 AM »
+1

The irony here is that the Digitrax AR1 (which everyone here, except @mu26aeh, wants to blend) worked, but the Dual Frog Juicer does not.   :P

It should be here tomorrow, should I mark " Return to Sender "  :trollface:

C855B

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 7628
  • Respect: +839
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2019, 11:34:58 AM »
0
I didn't scan for your topic, but here's a Tam Valley chat group: https://groups.io/g/Tam-Valley-Products/topics . That group can sometimes be <crickets> if nobody has a ready answer and Dr. MrRee doesn't participate (to my knowledge), but if somebody there ran into your problem they'll hopefully respond.

I'm going to be no help with your issue because I use relays for frog polarity.
...mike

http://www.gibboncozadandwestern.com

We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents. We just don't tell anybody. -Bob Ross

davefoxx

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8230
  • Gender: Male
  • "I like trains!"
  • Respect: +1667
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2019, 12:19:12 PM »
0
It should be here tomorrow, should I mark " Return to Sender "  :trollface:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

General Counsel to the Laurel Valley Ry.
Member: ACL/SAL Historical Society
A Proud HOer

Maletrain

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1039
  • Respect: +112
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2019, 12:47:01 PM »
0
Since the problem started with replacing the AR1 with a dual Frog Juicer, 2 thoughts come to mind. 

First, is the second part of the Frog Juicer reversing a section of track that was not previously revered by the AR1?  Or, is just one part of the dual Frog Juicer being used?

Second, assuming your answer to that question is that only one-half of the dual Juicer is being used to replace a single AR1 and the other half is unused, then if you have 2 sections of track that are on 2 separate reversers that are close enough together that they can be bridged together by your locomotive, then it may be a timing issue. 

The AR1 may have just been too slow to get into a fight with one of the elements of your Quad Juicer.  So, I suggest that you see how far apart the reversing elements are from each other.  Certainly, you don't want 2 reversing sections separated from each other by just an insulating rail joiner or a gap cut in the rail.  But, the same situation can occur if there is just a short section of nonreversing track between 2 reversing sections.  If your locomotive's electrical pickup locations are far enough apart to span over the non-reversing section and bridge together 2 reversing sections, that would create a timing race that the AR1 might have conveniently lost to the Quad Frog Juicer every time, until you replaced it with the dual juicer.

davefoxx

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8230
  • Gender: Male
  • "I like trains!"
  • Respect: +1667
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2019, 01:03:52 PM »
0
Since the problem started with replacing the AR1 with a dual Frog Juicer, 2 thoughts come to mind. 

First, is the second part of the Frog Juicer reversing a section of track that was not previously revered by the AR1?  Or, is just one part of the dual Frog Juicer being used?

Second, assuming your answer to that question is that only one-half of the dual Juicer is being used to replace a single AR1 and the other half is unused, then if you have 2 sections of track that are on 2 separate reversers that are close enough together that they can be bridged together by your locomotive, then it may be a timing issue. 

It takes two juicers to make an auto-reverser.  It's most easily done with a Dual Frog Juicer, and there is conveniently a jumper on the board to allow this to be.  I have installed the jumper.  This Juicer then cannot be used for anything else.

The AR1 may have just been too slow to get into a fight with one of the elements of your Quad Juicer.  So, I suggest that you see how far apart the reversing elements are from each other.  Certainly, you don't want 2 reversing sections separated from each other by just an insulating rail joiner or a gap cut in the rail.  But, the same situation can occur if there is just a short section of nonreversing track between 2 reversing sections.  If your locomotive's electrical pickup locations are far enough apart to span over the non-reversing section and bridge together 2 reversing sections, that would create a timing race that the AR1 might have conveniently lost to the Quad Frog Juicer every time, until you replaced it with the dual juicer.

This is what I think may be going on, i.e., the AR1 was slower.  I think I need to slow down the Dual Frog Juicer, but I haven't figured out how to do that yet.  I'm not sure I understand your discussion about two reversing sections.  I essentially have just cut one turnout, one side of the wye's triangle, and one tail track from the wye out as the reversing section.  There's no way to avoid a situation that the frogs are within (and abut!) the reversing section.

Thanks,
DFF

General Counsel to the Laurel Valley Ry.
Member: ACL/SAL Historical Society
A Proud HOer

C855B

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 7628
  • Respect: +839
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2019, 01:04:43 PM »
0
... First, is the second part of the Frog Juicer reversing a section of track that was not previously revered by the AR1?  Or, is just one part of the dual Frog Juicer being used? ...

Reiterating what Dave said, 1 Dual Frog Juicer = 1 reverser. "Dual" only applies to frogs.
...mike

http://www.gibboncozadandwestern.com

We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents. We just don't tell anybody. -Bob Ross

peteski

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 20532
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +1821
    • Coming (not so) soon...
Re: Frog Juicer Issues
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2019, 01:33:36 PM »
0
Maybe drawing us a quick and dirty track and wiring diagram would help here?

Even on a piece of paper, scan and post it here.
--- Peteski de Snarkski
--- Honorary Resident Curmudgeon