Author Topic: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???  (Read 1155 times)

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soo

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Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« on: April 11, 2019, 11:32:32 AM »
+1
Howdy to all.

It has been awhile for any work on the layout,, I have been dabbling with ESU lok sound and my Proto Throttle,, which is too cool!! But I digress.

I am wanting to add more switching to my layout,, put stay prototypical at the same time. The industries would be prototypical for the late 70's thru early 80's. I am wanting to have a continuous running also. At home the layout would not be put together in a prototype fashion,, but at shows prototype fidelity would be a priority.

Here is the space I have available in my garage for layout set up.



You can see that I am trying to bend the yard around that pain in rear offset. The yard on the other end will be no problem.

So here on the options as I see it,,

1. and 2. We have cardigan north and south. North a big bunch of nothing,, just track going to duluth/superior. South we have more possibilities. Various industries,, plus the R.I. at Inver grove.
3. and 4. You have the Minnesota Transfer south and north of New Brighton,, I google earthed the area,,looks like the MT had work to do in Fridley Mn on the north and industries southward to include just south of New Brighton.
5. There is the Soo westbound,, to include Shoreham and Humbolt yards. And I am sure there were industries somewhere.

After rereading this,, it would seem that New Brighton northward would be the thing to do. Thoughts?

I would like to find homes for my freight car fleet,,,, Covered hoppers ( to include, grain, plastics,cement, flour), gons, tank cars,, coil cars. I think I have the box cars covered with the Arden Hills area. With Bell Pole in New Brighton I have a home for flats, centerbeams and bulkhead cars.

In the original thread the idea was thrown out of the elevator district of Hiawatha Ave in South Minneapolis. That is an idea that I am toying with. Grain, flour and a scrap dealer. I googled earthed the area, looks pretty cool. In the prototype world it does not "work". But hey,,more switching is a great thing. With the gazillion covered hoppers that I have,, it would give them a home. While looking at google earth, there is yard for the cars to be switched in the right order for the industries. Looks like present day,, the train travels southbound then the power cuts off, running around the train to sort the cars. Working the industries, then gathering the return train then traveling back north.











Any ideas would be welcome. As from before,, I can build anything,, just need a plan.
So plan away, thank you in advance for the help.
Laters, Wyatt


wcfn100

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2019, 11:52:53 AM »
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Always loved that area.  I've got some pictures if you go that direction.


Jason

soo

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2019, 04:05:14 PM »
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Thanx,,I will keep that in mind..
How many different customers were there?
I wish there was some sort of encyclopedia on the area.

Laters, Wyatt

milw12

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 04:31:47 PM »
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I like the Hiawatha, and not just because I'm a Milwaukee fan or my current project is the not-to-distant Weyerhaeuser lumber  :D

Recently Barry K @BOK  kindly gave me a copy of an acquisition study the MNNR did when acquiring the Hiawatha switching district, might be the closest thing to the encyclopedia you want. It details the mills, tracks carspots, etc. Very helpful for prototypical modeling. Barry's knowledge of the area is second to none, it's great talking with him.

As far as I know, currently industries on the corridor proper are Leder Bros. scrap metal, and four mills/elevators (ADM Nokomis, ADM Atkinson, Elevator T, Checkerboard). Ralston Purina was demolished in 2006, I believe, and is currently an apartment complex.

The Commercial also serves a wide variety of industries around the metro area, if you are willing to spread out a little. Grain, plastics, oils and chemicals, scrap, lumber and more. Can't really go wrong. Specifically interesting industries could be the two Lube Tech facilities (Roseville and St. Paul) and Interplastics in Minneapolis with it's awful but highly modelable switching arrangement. Have fun with switching one tank at a time, and by the way, the run around is a couple blocks away  :)

Two more for fun:
Hawkins Chemical
Weekes Forest

And the before-mentioned Weyerhaeuser ;) Up until 2015, that is.

Whatever route you choose (I'll plug the Hiawatha again) I'll be following with interest. I am no expert (but Barry is!) but would be happy to help if I can, and if you need some leg work done I do live in the area.

Lucas
"'Model railroading is a continuing series of frustrations punctuated by moments of mild satisfaction.'" -C855B

soo

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 04:50:29 PM »
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Lucas,
Thanx for the reply brother. I am not doing current day. My era is late 70’s thru early 80’s.

Any way I can get that MNNR study from you?

If the Hiawatha Ave is the winner,,probably could run it as a stand alone. Just need the info.

Thanx, Wyatt

milw12

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 06:23:16 PM »
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Check your PM's. I forgot to mention it is from the mid-90's, but it'll be a start at least. Cross reference with older aerials (more on that in a bit) to see about tracks and what not, but I'd be surprised if much changed in 15 years. The mill I was looking at specifically appeared to still have the same tracks and spotting in the 90's as it did in a 1964 aerial- as far as I could tell.

Most of the Commercial as I understand is the old Minnesota Transfer, so some of the industries would be established in your time frame.

I'll never get tired of pimping this out, the University of Minnesota's Minnesota Historical Aerial Photographs Online. Click on the Minneapolis tab on the left, pick a year (1974 seems good), and follow the grid up and down the Hiawatha Avenue, the aerials are very high quality. The rest of the metro/state can be hit and miss for year and quality. 1960 under the Minnesota tab, especially for St Paul, is another good one.

-Lucas
"'Model railroading is a continuing series of frustrations punctuated by moments of mild satisfaction.'" -C855B

Cajonpassfan

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2019, 07:09:43 PM »
+1
Howdy to all.
...


You can see that I am trying to bend the yard around that pain in rear offset. The yard on the other end will be no
problem...etc.
Any ideas would be welcome. As from before,, I can build anything,, just need a plan.
So plan away, thank you in advance for the help.
Laters, Wyatt

Wyatt, that bend in the yard around the "pain in the rear" offset maybe a blessing in disguise. If I may, my first reaction to the plan is that it feels too geometrical and rigid. Tracks parallel the walls and edges everywhere and almost every curve has the same radius and the same 90 degree turn. I assume you want flexibility to arrange the modules in other configurations? Still, I would look for a way to loosen the plan a bit by introducing at least some variety and maybe a cosmetic curve or two...and a nice flowing larger radius S curve in the yard might be a good start.
YMMV, so have fun with whatever you do.
Otto
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 07:12:39 PM by Cajonpassfan »

soo

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2019, 11:13:18 AM »
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     Howdy all,

     After thinking about it and taking some more measurements, I decided to just build a section to fit the space and not use a plain rectangle. After drawing that, and drawing track center lines,, it worked out nice. The radius on the curves in the yard will be about 22" on the south end ( which is the top in the drawing) and about 36" on the north end ( bottom of the section)
 
     There are 5 tracks at Cardigan. But just 3 true yard tracks. Right to left: 1.Main track 1 2. Main track 2 3. 94 1/2" 4. 74" 5. 63 1/2". Those are in the clear measurements without fouling the other tracks.

     Over at New Brighton there are 5 tracks as well. From right to left: 1. Is the Bell Pole industry track 2. Main 3. 94" 4. 74" 5. 63 1/2". Once again those are in the clear measurements.

     Radius of the corner sections are 22" per FreemoN standards.

     The space from corner to corner is 13' 1 3/4". That is the room that I have avaible for the new industrial area, either Hiawatha Ave or something else.

     To be clear the tracks in bold lines are set in stone, those are the existing sections.



     Thoughts, Ideas?

     Laters,
               Wyatt

Missaberoad

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2019, 12:20:06 PM »
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Looking at your plan, there isn't a lot of opportunity to have a prototypical continuation, and to keep things linear.

Using the avaliable space I would expand the Minnesota transfer yard and have something based on the Hiawatha Ave spur on the opposite wall to Lexington Ave.

Now expanding west on the Soo I have lots of ideas  ;)

Either way it's exciting and super hawt... Gonna have to get building on my own plans...
Ryan in Alberta

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2019, 12:29:55 PM »
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Important question: is there enough space left over for "nothing"?  That bottom wall looks like it, but I want to make sure I'm the birdie on your shoulder reminding you.

wcfn100

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2019, 12:39:06 PM »
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Don't forget to look back at this thread.

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=38968.165

Looks like we're covering some of the same stuff.

Jason

wcfn100

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2019, 12:42:26 PM »
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Important question: is there enough space left over for "nothing"?  That bottom wall looks like it, but I want to make sure I'm the birdie on your shoulder reminding you.

In the Metro area, there's not a lot of "nothing" to be had, at least not in that era.  If he is going to have some Minneapolis trackage, the Short Line bridge over the Mississippi could make for a great scene and add empty space to the layout.

Jason
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 12:49:23 PM by wcfn100 »

soo

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2019, 01:03:14 PM »
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Empty,, like my wallet you mean??? :D :P

     I understand the concept of empty, but I am looking at adding some more switching. I have been noodling on the thoughts of two layout in one area.. stoopid?? dunno.

    The existing layout would be "1" layout,, and the rest would be a 2nd layout.  I just trying to add more ops,,, kind of like Tim Allen,,, " MORE POWER".

    Thinking just now,,I could build emptiness. Keep the empties for the shows, then setting up the ops at the house.  hmmm,,, stoopid?? dunno

    Another option is to just build the yard ends,, then some turn back loops,,, and call it bueno.

    Jason had a good idea,, Mississippi river scene. Hmm,,scenery is on the bottom of my modeling skill list.. I can build like there is no tomorrow,, making it look all scenic and stuff,, not so much.

    We will see what we will see,, :o :scared:

    Laters, Wyatt

CRL

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2019, 01:17:19 PM »
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What are these module joint spanning tie sets called, and where can I find them?

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Missaberoad

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Re: Cardigan Jct-New Brighton Soo Line FreemoN,, continuation???
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2019, 01:44:25 PM »
+1
For a Mississippi crossing scene I would cast my vote for the Soo Line Bridge at Camden Place, its due west of New Brighton and begs to be modeled... (what's not to love about a bridge with a wye on it!

http://rr-fallenflags.org/soo/soo0804u25.jpg

http://rr-fallenflags.org/soo/soo4413g08.jpg

https://www.johnweeks.com/bridges/rrpics/cprail01.jpg

As far as "negative space" there was quite a bit of open running west from New Brighton towards Hilo jct and Shoreham yard, including some interesting pusher operations on Shoreham Hill that lasted until the Milwaukee road merger.

Keep in mind tho like Jason mentioned the area we are talking about is smack dab in the middle of the Twin Cities metro area and by the 70s/80s the city was growing around the railroad.

Wyatt I like your idea of two layout in one,  and having the elevator district visually separate from the Soo but connected seems like it would work... And likely there's is only two or three people on here who would know it's out of place.  :D

That being said I do think a westward expansion towards Humboldt yard would be badass especially for shows...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 01:49:53 PM by Missaberoad »
Ryan in Alberta