Hand laid turnout question

[narrowminded]

@robert3985  or anybody else.  

When laying track, not necessarily switches, do you use a product like Pliobond to glue the rail to the filler ties?  Or some type of glue?  I ask because my reading has suggested that Pliobond is great because it is easy to repair should it break loose for any reason (expansion/ contraction?) by just heating with a solder iron.  When pondering that, a concern surfaces when using styrene ties with heat from a soldering iron.   Anything to add?

[jdcolombo]

I use Pliobond, but I use wood ties.  Note that I also finish all my turnouts (add ties) at the bench so I have a complete turnout that I can "drop in" to the layout like a commercial one.  I've also found it helps to roughen the bottom surface of the rail before gluing the rest of the ties.  For this, I just use a wire brush in a Dremel on the skeleton.  Then I add the Pliobond, press onto ties that I've already laid out on a paper template (I stick the ties to a piece of thin Scotch double-sided tape; not the foam stuff, but what they sometimes call "photo mounting" tape - in a yellow/black dispenser), and let cure. 

John C.

[Bill H]

I agree with John. Use Pliobond - but get the kind that comes in a glue like tube with a thin snout, not a glass bottle with a brush. Then get some flexible tips to put on the snout of the tube. Makes putting a nice thin bead of Pliobond on the rails before you turn over and attach to the ties. Let the Pliobond dry first, then turnover and position over your wooden ties. Run your soldering iron at a low temp or lightly and quickly if not temperature adjustable along the rails to set the glue. Not too much heat, you don't want to un-solder the pcb ties. Pliobond deteriorates in a few years and becomes very stringy, use a fresh tube every so often.

Kind regards,
Bill

[peteski]

Pliobond deteriorates in a few years and becomes very stringy, use a fresh tube every so often.

Kind regards,
Bill

If you look at the ingredients list on the tube/bottle, it will list whatever is used for its solvents (probably acetone, naphtha, xylene, or similar). You could simply add some of that solvent to make the adhesive usable again.  I do this with contact cement when it thickens up on me.  However, if you use the tube version, it would be difficult to do this.  But it should work for the bottled version.

[robert3985]

@robert3985  or anybody else.  

When laying track, not necessarily switches, do you use a product like Pliobond to glue the rail to the filler ties?  Or some type of glue?  I ask because my reading has suggested that Pliobond is great because it is easy to repair should it break loose for any reason (expansion/ contraction?) by just heating with a solder iron.  When pondering that, a concern surfaces when using styrene ties with heat from a soldering iron.   Anything to add?

Truth of the matter is that if you use Pliobond at every tie, then the PCB ties become superfluous.  Way back when, I even laid turnouts using nothing but rail and wooden ties...using Pliobond to glue the rails to the ties was the preferred method that Gordon Odegard used to hand-lay C40 N-Scale trackage, both track and turnouts with PCB ties only as throwbars.

With me however, I sand wooden ties after they and the PCB ties are glued down with yellow carpenter's glue to get the wooden ties to the same height as the PCB ties. Another truth is that the wooden ties in between the PCB ties are merely for decoration...they're not structurally necessary for your trains to run reliably.

My Styrene ties on my turnouts are the same height already as the PCB ties, but like the wooden ties, they are not structurally necessary for my turnouts to work just fine with trains running on them.

In light of the fact that both wooden ties and Styrene ties are only decoration, I don't find it necessary to use Pliobond to glue them to the rails.

BUT, during the ballasting process, the rails automatically get glued to the ties with ballast cement, which I have found over the last 20+ years of having a portable layout, to be completely trouble free.

I wouldn't worry about gluing your rails to wooden ties if you solder your rails to PCB ties every fifth tie, because that's structurally plenty to make them both durable and keep the rails in place.

If you feel like you are compelled to glue your rails to your wooden ties, then buy Pliobond cement from Fast Tracks here: https://www.handlaidtrack.com/tools-adhesives

However, once again, I don't worry about it, and it works fine for me and eliminates an unnecessary step, making track laying go much faster.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[nkalanaga]

I agree that the wooden ties between the PCB ties aren't needed to maintain gauge, but they do serve a useful purpose, besides appearance.  A PCB tie every half to three-quarter inch will work fine, but you must be VERY careful cleaning the track, or you end up with vertical kinks.

I found that out many years ago, when first experimenting with PCB ties for laying track.  As it was just a test track, I didn't waste time or money on looks.  Code 55 didn't have too many problems, but code 40 turned out to be surprising fragile under "normal" cleaning.

I know, most people won't lay track with just PCB ties, but for hidden track it could save time, money, and effort.

[robert3985]

I agree that the wooden ties between the PCB ties aren't needed to maintain gauge, but they do serve a useful purpose, besides appearance.  A PCB tie every half to three-quarter inch will work fine, but you must be VERY careful cleaning the track, or you end up with vertical kinks.

I found that out many years ago, when first experimenting with PCB ties for laying track.  As it was just a test track, I didn't waste time or money on looks.  Code 55 didn't have too many problems, but code 40 turned out to be surprising fragile under "normal" cleaning.

I know, most people won't lay track with just PCB ties, but for hidden track it could save time, money, and effort.

I hadn't thought of somebody actually hand-laying track without "decorative" wooden ties between the PCB ones, but I can see that C40 would surely bend vertically if rubbed too hard without the wooden or Styrene ties underneath to support the rails!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[Bill H]

With me however, I sand wooden ties after they and the PCB ties are glued down with yellow carpenter's glue to get the wooden ties to the same height as the PCB ties....
My Styrene ties on my turnouts are the same height already as the PCB ties,

If you feel like you are compelled to glue your rails to your wooden ties, then buy Pliobond cement from Fast Tracks here: https://www.handlaidtrack.com/tools-adhesives

However, once again, I don't worry about it, and it works fine for me and eliminates an unnecessary step, making track laying go much faster.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

I have to agree with Bob, FT is where I buy my Pliobond and tips. However, I have a slightly different approach to the ties. I use ME code 40 only, so my wooden ties are the same height as the ties on ME code 40, saving a lot of shimming up as pcb ties and ME code 40 ties are different heights.

Kind regards,
Bill

[Angus Shops]

Poliobond for me as well, sourced from FT with their application tip. I put a thin bead on the bottom of the rails and the top of the ties, let dry, press together (as with contact cement, as I believe FT recommends) and then apply heat. I lay the ties out on printouts of FT's turnouts using a thin strip of double sided crafters tape and, because I use the FT jig, it all fits together properly. However, recently I've been leaving out the 5 ties closest to the points because, no matter how hard I try, I find some Pliobond gets into places it shouldn't and interferes with the smooth movement of the point rails. After the switch is installed on the layout the missing ties can be slipped under the rails with a tiny bit of white glue to secure them to the roadbed.
Geoff

[Santa Fe Guy]

Hand-laid turnouts are being used on my HOn3 D&RGW Monarch Branch. I'm using the Fast Tracks paper templates to which I glue the Fast Tracks wooden ties to then lay the fabricated turnout over the top onto my cork roadbed. I have had issues with manufactured turnouts in the past so just in case I pin my turnouts down using Peco track pins through the PCB making sure that I cannot get a short by offsetting where the pins are from one side of the turnout to the other. The turnouts are nicely held in place and easy to remove if ever needed.
Ballast will hold everything in place later.
Rod.

[nkalanaga]

I also laid the wooden ties, then added the bench-built turnouts, but took a little different tack for fastening them down.  Rather than try to fasten them through the PCB ties, which are rather small in N scale, I used ME 1/4" spikes through the wooden ties.  Since the PCB ties fixed the gauge, I only needed spikes on the outside, where flange clearance wasn't a problem.  Most prototype turnouts have rail braces at the points, frog, and guard rails, so the larger-than-scale spikes didn't look out of place.  The spikes at the points also reinforced the solder joints, allowing for greater pressure, keeping the points tight against the stock rails.

[jdcolombo]

Poliobond for me as well, sourced from FT with their application tip. I put a thin bead on the bottom of the rails and the top of the ties, let dry, press together (as with contact cement, as I believe FT recommends) and then apply heat. I lay the ties out on printouts of FT's turnouts using a thin strip of double sided crafters tape and, because I use the FT jig, it all fits together properly. However, recently I've been leaving out the 5 ties closest to the points because, no matter how hard I try, I find some Pliobond gets into places it shouldn't and interferes with the smooth movement of the point rails. After the switch is installed on the layout the missing ties can be slipped under the rails with a tiny bit of white glue to secure them to the roadbed.
Geoff

I've had the "got glue in the wrong spot" problem, too.  This is a great idea for fixing that.

John C.

[narrowminded]

I received the Fast Tracks order for a code 40, #4 Nn3 switch fixture and related tools and supplies including for Nn3 track.  All looks really good BUT... I forgot to order the PCB switch ties.   I did get track ties and they come machined in an oversized PCB board with the ties meant to be broken out, leaving the perimeter that held them together.  At a glance, the perimeter of that board should give me enough material to machine enough switch ties to get started with a few switches.  I don't have anything else that I need (that I know of yet ) so am reluctant to order just those ties.  It shouldn't be too bad to machine what I need.

What has come up is the absence of a track gauge other than the one from Republic Locomotive Works.  I have ordered a couple as well as their NMRA style track gauge (NMRA doesn't make one) but the three point track gauges are cast as so many are, and don't look too great in the pictures of them.  Anticipating the gauges to be less than I would like for such a critical component I'm preparing to make some, accurately machined and utilizing pins instead of cast grooves. That thinking led me to the NMRA site and getting the true specs.  That also started generating some questions, especially about tolerance but also about fitting, selecting the tolerance I will use. 

The NMRA spec for the dimension inside rail head calls for a target of .258" with the tolerance at -.002"/ +.008".   That led me to check what the Fast Tracks switch fixture measured and found it to be set for .260" inside.  Then I checked some new Atlas Z scale flex track and found it to be .260" inside, too.  Unless anybody has advise to the contrary I suspect I'll go with that for my gauge target instead of the .258" target from the NMRA chart.  And then I get to what tolerance to build in to the gauge.  Fast Tracks states that ME track holds plus or minus .001" so I think .002"/ .003" would be generous enough and would hold nice, tight track tolerance with the possibility that it might handle wheel widths machined a bit closer to scale than what's often made.  At least that's the theory.   Any advise to the contrary?

[Angus Shops]

As much as I like the FT system and their products, I do find the frets of PCB ties a little frustrating. The useable length of the tie pieces are only 1 3/8", which is too long for a single longer but not long enough for a longer and a shorter tie. This results in a lot of waste. Being charitable, I assume this has something to do with the ability of their milling machine to hold the fret together as its being milled. Ideally we could have ties strips, say, 12" long and almost no waste.
The total width of the "oversized" PCB fret is 1 7/8". I have a good solid pair of flush cutting pliers that I use to cut through the fret material to cut tie strip the full 1 7/8" long (with a little filing to clean up). This lessens wastage substantially and improves the "completed turnouts per dollar of FT expenditure" ratio. Watch out for the off-cut bits though; they rocket across the room at the speed of light.
Geoff

[narrowminded]

As much as I like the FT system and their products, I do find the frets of PCB ties a little frustrating. The useable length of the tie pieces are only 1 3/8", which is too long for a single longer but not long enough for a longer and a shorter tie. This results in a lot of waste. Being charitable, I assume this has something to do with the ability of their milling machine to hold the fret together as its being milled. Ideally we could have ties strips, say, 12" long and almost no waste.
The total width of the "oversized" PCB fret is 1 7/8". I have a good solid pair of flush cutting pliers that I use to cut through the fret material to cut tie strip the full 1 7/8" long (with a little filing to clean up). This lessens wastage substantially and improves the "completed turnouts per dollar of FT expenditure" ratio. Watch out for the off-cut bits though; they rocket across the room at the speed of light.
Geoff

Thanks for your reply.  I suspect that they don't cut them all to individual lengths because of the tremendous variety of sizes needed, each turnout requiring its own specific set.  And they probably work from a few rectangles for fixturing in their machine so material consumption, from their perspective, would remain the same.  So for that and the ease of the customer trimming them to length, I'll give them that one.   But because I'll be machining my own this time I will probably gather the dimensions and just machine them to the individual lengths.  That will be helpful as I'll be trying to conserve material due to my ordering oops.    I may find this to be the way to go over the haul but the practicality of doing that will present itself as I make a few.  I expect this to be a bit of a learning curve.

Meanwhile, any experience with track gauges for code 40 Z track?