Hand laid turnout question

[nkalanaga]

Republic Locomotive Works has them for Nn3, which is the same gauge.  They used to, and probably still do, have both 3-point and NMRA style.

It isn't hard to make your own, especially cheap disposable ones for soldering track.  I made mine from basswood, and made new ones as the old ones scorched and wore.

[robert3985]

Way back when, when RailCraft got out of the business of making hand-made PCB turnouts (remember those?), I bought all of their remaining stock of PCB tie material, which was cut into 12" lengths.  I think I paid only $45 for all of it, but when it arrived, it was a bundle that was tied together with rubber bands that formed a solid cylinder of PCB tie material that was 6.5" in diameter.  LOTS of ties could be made from that!...and lots of ties have been made.  It's down to about 3" in diameter now...and I'll be 70 next year, so I don't think I'll be running out of PCB tie material.

Gordy Odegard showed how he made N scale C40 three-point gauges out of brass in his MR article in the '70's...and I made some.  Pretty easy to do.  Making them for Nn3 should be pretty easy, but my buddy Gregg Cuddworth just uses roller gauges for his Nn3 track laying he bought from the 2mm Scale Association in England for C30 ribbon rail.  Don't see why C40 ones won't work just as well, and being made from brass, should last forever. I see they have narrow gauge (6.5mm) ones for sale here: http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/shops.php?shop_num=1

Also, in perusing the 2mm Scale Association's pages, I noted they also use a gauge called a "button gauge" which is just a "button" turned from aluminum (pronounced al-you-min-ee-um I'm sure!    ) that has a diameter that is the same as the gauge of the track, with a projection on top for you to grab on to...it's held in place with a metal hairdresser's hair clip, with both rails held captive between the fingers of the clip and the outside diameter of the button gauge.  Hmmmm....this looks interesting!  I might have to turn a few of these the next time I'm laying C40 Park City Branchline track!

There are also some instructions on how to consistently joggle your diverging stock rail at the headblocks if you want to.  Maybe not for Nn3, but for standard gauge for sure.

Interesting to see some of their techniques, tools and parts available.  The injection molded tie strips look especially enviable!

Definitely worth going to and looking around!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore   

[garethashenden]

Just remember you have to be a member of the 2mm Association to order from them. It both keeps the accounting easier and gets people to join up.

On a related subject, I use their pcb ties rather than the Fast Tracks ones. They’re a little long, since they’re for a different scale, but they’re a tenth the cost. You get 500 for about what FT charges for 45. For that price I’m happy to trim them.

[narrowminded]

Also, in perusing the 2mm Scale Association's pages, I noted they also use a gauge called a "button gauge" which is just a "button" turned from aluminum (pronounced al-you-min-ee-um I'm sure!    ) that has a diameter that is the same as the gauge of the track, with a projection on top for you to grab on to...it's held in place with a metal hairdresser's hair clip, with both rails held captive between the fingers of the clip and the outside diameter of the button gauge.  Hmmmm....this looks interesting!  I might have to turn a few of these the next time I'm laying C40 Park City Branchline track!

That button gauge does look interesting but may need to have a step in it to not catch the wider bottom flange when using it.  Probably put the step at the bottom so it clears there and only registers at the rail head.  I may make one of them, too.   So far I've been thinking of several three points and maybe a roller or two.  The button would be easy to throw in to the mix.

There are also some instructions on how to consistently joggle your diverging stock rail at the headblocks if you want to.  Maybe not for Nn3, but for standard gauge for sure.

Interesting to see some of their techniques, tools and parts available.  The injection molded tie strips look especially enviable!


Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

I found the ties from Central Valley to be very interesting, too.  Much the same idea but the system isn't complete for N like it is for HO.  I really think the idea is excellent so purchased a pack from MTS on my last order but haven't worked with any of it yet. They are code 55 but with the pliobond method and some track gauges I'm not sure that you couldn't get code 40 to work in them.  They don't have anything for Z or Nn3 so don't have any bearing on this immediate project but for N scale I will give them a good look.

https://www.cvmw.com/cvt.htm

[narrowminded]

Just remember you have to be a member of the 2mm Association to order from them. It both keeps the accounting easier and gets people to join up.

On a related subject, I use their pcb ties rather than the Fast Tracks ones. They’re a little long, since they’re for a different scale, but they’re a tenth the cost. You get 500 for about what FT charges for 45. For that price I’m happy to trim them.

I see that in my future.   They have a LOT of interesting pieces.

[SandyEggoJake]

The PCB ties I've purchased seem to be made of FR-4 board (CopperHead N Scale PC Board from fast tracks - double sided copper over fiberglass).  Given they are double sided and the copper is only needed at the rails and in fact need to be gapped to working, I've often thought FR-4 board wasn't the ideal.   And ... well... the CopperHead ties aren't cheap.  I've thought of making my own, but FR-4 is notoriously hard on blades to cut and with the resulting glass dust shards are not something I'd care to fill my shop.1.

But recently I've learn of a different types of PCB that are less expensive as they do not use fibreglass and only have copper on one side. FR1( laminated cotton paper)/FR-2 (Phenolic cotton paper)/FR-3 (Cotton paper and epoxy)... so blade wear and less toxic dust? 

Has anyone tried cutting their own ties using one of these non FR-4 boards?    Worth the effort? 

[narrowminded]

I've thought of making my own, but FR-4 is notoriously hard on blades to cut and with the resulting glass dust shards are not something I'd care to fill my shop.1.

I have a vaccuum attached to my mill right at the cutter.  It keeps the chip and such controlled such that it's virtually non existent anywhere around the machine.  That was done just for the mess in the house but with a good sized Shop Vac attached it gets the job done better than anticipated.

But recently I've learn of a different types of PCB that are less expensive as they do not use fibreglass and only have copper on one side. FR1( laminated cotton paper)/FR-2 (Phenolic cotton paper)/FR-3 (Cotton paper and epoxy)... so blade wear and less toxic dust? 

Has anyone tried cutting their own ties using one of these non FR-4 boards?    Worth the effort?

I haven't tried ties but have done some circuit boards with regular fiberglass boards.  Carbide cutters seem to hold up acceptably and aren't all that expensive.  Making them from any fiber type material I would be concerned about wetting them down while ballasting and such. 

[narrowminded]

I just got notice that RLW is on vacation so my order won't be shipping until early December.   Can't blame them for taking vacation but disappointing just the same.  This effort is trying hard to not get done.

[peteski]

But recently I've learn of a different types of PCB that are less expensive as they do not use fibreglass and only have copper on one side. FR1( laminated cotton paper)/FR-2 (Phenolic cotton paper)/FR-3 (Cotton paper and epoxy)... so blade wear and less toxic dust? 

Has anyone tried cutting their own ties using one of these non FR-4 boards?    Worth the effort?

In my experience with those materials (mainly  with the phenolic cotton paper PC boards in electronic devices, not as PC board ties) those are inferior to the glass-epoxy boards.  Sure, they will not be as tough on blades, and no glass dust) but the material is less heat resistant and the copper foil can delaminate during soldering.  They are also much more fragile and will break much more easily.  The cotton paper/epoxy sounds like it might be a stronger and better quality material (but still not as good as the glass/epoxy).

The "FR" thing is just a rating of the dielectric material (the board itself). 'FR" means Flame Retardant.  Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printed_circuit_board

There are quite a few different dielectrics that can be chosen to provide different insulating values depending on the requirements of the circuit. Some of these dielectrics are polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon), FR-4, FR-1, CEM-1 or CEM-3. Well known pre-preg materials used in the PCB industry are FR-2 (phenolic cotton paper), FR-3 (cotton paper and epoxy), FR-4 (woven glass and epoxy), FR-5 (woven glass and epoxy), FR-6 (matte glass and polyester), G-10 (woven glass and epoxy), CEM-1 (cotton paper and epoxy), CEM-2 (cotton paper and epoxy), CEM-3 (non-woven glass and epoxy), CEM-4 (woven glass and epoxy), CEM-5 (woven glass and polyester). Thermal expansion is an important consideration especially with ball grid array (BGA) and naked die technologies, and glass fiber offers the best dimensional stability.

FR-4 is by far the most common material used today. The board stock with unetched copper on it is called "copper-clad laminate".

For more details see the Laminates section in the earlier link.

[nkalanaga]

Clover House used to have PC ties.  I haven't looked in years, but you could check there.  Theirs came in 12 inch lengths, regular N ties and turnout throwbars, which are about twice as wide.

[ednadolski]

The PCB ties I've purchased seem to be made of FR-4 board (CopperHead N Scale PC Board from fast tracks - double sided copper over fiberglass).  Given they are double sided and the copper is only needed at the rails and in fact need to be gapped to working, I've often thought FR-4 board wasn't the ideal.   And ... well... the CopperHead ties aren't cheap.  I've thought of making my own, but FR-4 is notoriously hard on blades to cut and with the resulting glass dust shards are not something I'd care to fill my shop.1.

But recently I've learn of a different types of PCB that are less expensive as they do not use fibreglass and only have copper on one side. FR1( laminated cotton paper)/FR-2 (Phenolic cotton paper)/FR-3 (Cotton paper and epoxy)... so blade wear and less toxic dust? 

Has anyone tried cutting their own ties using one of these non FR-4 boards?    Worth the effort?

I've wondered if it would be feasible (i.e., how much $$$) to pre-mill the top cladding layer off the PCB boards, leaving two parallel strips of copper, before cutting the board into individual ties.  The remaining cladding would represent tieplates, and it also takes care of the gapping.  (Turnout ties might be a different story tho )

Ed

[narrowminded]

I've wondered if it would be feasible (i.e., how much $$$) to pre-mill the top cladding layer off the PCB boards, leaving two parallel strips of copper, before cutting the board into individual ties.  The remaining cladding would represent tieplates, and it also takes care of the gapping.  (Turnout ties might be a different story tho )

Ed

I don't think it would be much cost at all.  Fast Tracks already sells pre-gapped ties and they are machined in an oversized fret so it isn't the material and the machine time would be minimally different, at least for them with that approach.  What I DO see as a potential problem is the very little bit of copper and its attachment to the fiberglass at each rail solder point.  That may not be strong enough for the loads it will see in the installation process and in service, with expansion/ contraction and humidity changes. 

But I do think the approach from Central Valley that's flushed out in HO could be done with all of the requirements covered, switches and all.  I would still like to see that approach completed.

[SandyEggoJake]

I've wondered if it would be feasible (i.e., how much $$$) to pre-mill the top cladding layer off the PCB boards, leaving two parallel strips of copper, before cutting the board into individual ties.  The remaining cladding would represent tieplates, and it also takes care of the gapping.  (Turnout ties might be a different story tho )

Actually, I was thinking a step farther.  If the FR2 & 3 are made of resin or epoxy, wondering if the copper could be laminated or deposited just on two 3mm band on top of a molded tie plate details over a heat resistant substrate sheet that also had wood grain details?   Could be the best of both worlds?  Could even produce them pretinned, ready to solder... 

I suspect placement of band on the tie plate details would be a challenge.  So alternatively, one could copper clad the entire textured surface and then just etch back to the tie plates using a photo resist process prior to tinning. 

[narrowminded]

Actually, I was thinking a step farther.  If the FR2 & 3 are made of resin or epoxy, wondering if the copper could be laminated or deposited just on two 3mm band on top of a molded tie plate details over a heat resistant substrate sheet that also had wood grain details?   Could be the best of both worlds?  Could even produce them pretinned, ready to solder... 

I suspect placement of band on the tie plate details would be a challenge.  So alternatively, one could copper clad the entire textured surface and then just etch back to the tie plates using a photo resist process prior to tinning.

That sounds more costly for sure but it's also similar to options currently offered by Proto:87 Stores. 

[SandyEggoJake]

Carbide cutters seem to hold up acceptably and aren't all that expensive.

I'm still san mill.  The letter to Santa will again include a Sherline CNC rig.  Must not have been good enough in the last few years...   

So currently when I rip stuff, its either with the cabinet saw or (something this narrow) my band saw.  And for straight, I can rip though most fast.  But in spite of what premium blade maker Timber Wolf claims, I've recently trashed a new 3/16 x 12RK Swedish silicon steel blade in one day, cutting some impregnated plastics and 3/16 AL bar stock. 

For me this is all about trying to cut cost of 10 cents / tie from the Fast Track product I've used in the past.   I'm staring at a yard module plan that call for some 18 hand laid compound curved turnouts and, to my surprise, if I use the Fast Tracks materials, PCB ties was the #1 cost.   

Thx @nkalanaga

Clover House does indeed sell PCB in 10 pcs of 12" sheared to width.  At about 17 ties per stick, at $8/pack, it works out to less than 5 cents per tie. 

Of course one can get sheets of FR4 8 x 12" for about $4.  If one aims for a similar .056" actual using a bandsaw blade with a .025" kerf, each sheet should yield at least 80 12" strips.  Or 8 packs of 10 cut (rather than sheared from Clover House) you get it down to just .3 cents per tie.  Per tie, that's actually in the range of my estimated costs for precut wood ties.