Hand laid turnout question

[narrowminded]

A Taig at Harbor Freight?
http://www.taigtools.com/mlathe.html

Sorry about that.  I was being rushed, sitting in a doctor's office and spoke before my brain was engaged.  The lathe I was thinking of is a Seig. 

The Harbor Freight lathe is the same basic machine as all of the 7" x 10" thru 14" machines marketed worldwide.  The variations are in tooling packages and a few motor and speed control packages.  99%(?) of the parts are interchangeable on all of them.

[jdcolombo]

Hi Mark.

I'm late to this discussion (been on the road for two weeks), but here's my observations FWIW.

The frog/point tool, I think, is priceless.  Easy to use, with near-perfect results every time.  And as someone else pointed out, with a bit of fudging on how far you shove the rail in on the point side, you can easily construct points for frogs one number on either side of what you have - e.g., a #6 or #8 frog from a #7 tool. 

The Stock Aid tool is probably less useful for someone like you with extensive machining experience.  I use mine all the time, and I'm just careful about how much metal I remove from the foot area.  Someone with machining expertise could almost certainly find a better way to do it with jigs and a mill (particularly if the mill was set up for CNC).  But I don't have that experience, and the Stock Aid works very well for me.

Finally, I agree with an earlier poster that while you CAN just use a paper template, my results are superior using the FT jig.  It just works.  I've built a couple of turnouts from paper templates, and while they work well (better than commercial counterparts), they aren't as "precision" as the ones built with the FT jig.  Maybe if I made 100 of the same turnout using a paper template I'd end up making them as well as with a jig.  But I'm not going to do that.

As for time involved, I can make a complete turnout (with the full complement of ties using bulk wood ties instead of FT's "quick stick" ties) in under 2 hours.  I've got about 90 Atlas Code 55 turnouts on my layout, mostly #7's, and about a dozen FT ones (#6's) along with a couple of paper-template-made #4's that I made to finish the layout during the great Code 55 track drought a few years ago.  The FT turnouts are so much better than the Atlas ones that I want to cry every time I look at the Atlas turnouts, because what I really should do is tear them all out and replace them with FT's.  I won't, because my layout is simply too far done, but there is zero question that if I ever do another layout, no matter how big it may be, I'll make all the turnouts using FT tools.  Even though I'm at the "more money than time" stage of my life, the quality difference is so great that the time investment is worth it.

John C.

[robert3985]

Hi Mark,

I'm also a bit late to the discussion.  As many of you know, I've been hand-laying turnouts since the early 1980's in N-scale, using C70, C55 and C40 rail.  When I got started there was no FT providing jigs & fixtures and special tools to help out.  The tools that WERE available were the NMRA "Gage" and Railcraft metal 3-point gauges.

The dearth of tools forced those who wished to hand-lay their track in N-scale to do it by extrapolating from articles written for HO scale, picking and choosing which techniques would work for the smaller scale.

So, I've never used any of the FT tools or jigs & fixtures, and continue to use printed paper templates to lay out either individual turnouts to build, or combinations of turnouts and track to build all at once, such as yard ladders and center sidings 3-turnout entrances.

Photo (1) - C55 Turnouts under construction on my drawing table using a computer generated track centerline with FT and P87 turnout templates:


Over the years, I've built at least 1000 turnouts by hand, and in the process I've discovered several weak links in "traditional" turnout construction that are considered to be "normal" without much thought given as to how to make hand-built turnouts 100% reliable, rather than just expecting to have to re-solder certain parts periodically.

The main points of weakness (pun intended) are the toes of the closure points which are commonly attached to a PCB "throwbar" by soldering what's left of the railfoot after filing the point toes.  This mounting point is also the point of maximum stress on the switch both from torque from switches made without sliding hinges, which FT recommends, and from being forced against the adjacent stock rails by whatever is used to keep them in place.  It is also the weakest solder joint in the entire switch construction.

To give this weak link a better chance to not come unsoldered over years of use, there are at least three methods which are easy to use to compensate for these two weak points, and a fourth that is not so easy to do.  (1) Using the FT method of not hinging the closure points, make sure to keep the closure points/closure rails assembly as free-floating as possible by NOT soldering the closure rails on to a PCB tie where the point hinges would prototypically be.  Even if you file a "notch hinge" into each rail, the torque created by moving the point toes back and forth if the closure rails are soldered to a PCB tie at what would be the point heels, will, over time, cause one of the solder joints to break at the PCB throwbar...especially with C55 rail, not so much with C40.  (2) You can bend the un-filed rail you're going to use at a 90 deg. angle where you're going to create your point toes and file off everything except the railfoot.  This will create a comparatively large "tab" with plenty of surface area which will be exponentially stronger than using only half the railfoot as is "normal"

Photo (2) - Soldering "tabs" on C40 #6 standard gauge turnout made by bending the unfiled rail at 90 deg. used to create the closure rails and mounting tabs before filing point toes:


The main problem with making your point toes like this is that the throwbar and headblocks have to be positioned non-prototypically in relation to the position of the actual point toes.

(3) You can hinge your closure points heels with a sliding hinge.  This takes all the torque away from the point toe solder joints, leaving only the pressure against the stock rails from whatever you're using to throw the switch.  Proto87Stores makes an etched fret that has their throwbar (which I throw away) and, their point heel hinges (which I keep and use).  Here's where to view the product and order:  http://www.proto87.com/product1931.html  Cost is $2.49

Photo (3) - Point heel hinges by Proto87Stores on one of my #8 C55 turnouts during construction:


This hinge has to be a "sliding" hinge, allowing the closure point heels to slide a bit when the switch is thrown.  Simply filing "notch" hinges into the sides of the rails will act as a good, reliable hinge with 100% electrical conductivity, but if the closure rails are soldered to a PCB tie, the resulting torque that generates when the switch is thrown will cause even point toes with big soldering tabs to break the solder joint, or worst-case, delaminate the copper cladding from the PCB throwbar.

Photo (4) - Point heel hinges by Proto87Stores with finished Tri-Planed Closure Point Rails by P87Stores, with my closure point toe attachment protocol:


Finally, you can (4) keep your monolithic closure point rails/closure rails assembly, but hinge the closure point toes at the throwbar.  The previous photo (#4) shows how I do it.  I want mine to look fairly prototypical, but be a firm hinge that won't seize up.  I do two of them per closure point toe assembly, but the second hinge is cosmetic, with the one at the throwbar being the one that takes all the torque and stress.

Photo (5) - Another view of my closure point toe hinges at the throwbar:


Photo (6) - Here's a drawing with instructions on how I make my hinges:


You may have noticed if you looked closely at my hinges closure point rails, that the adjacent stock rails are not filed...meaning the railfoot and railhead are all there.  This is because I have decided to form the closure points rails like the prototype.  I haven't figured out how to do this yet on my own, so I purchase from Proto87Stores, their C55 "Ultimate 3-Way CNC Planed Points" for $9.95 a set.  This negates the need to purchase an FT StockAid tool, or an FT PointForms tool.  You can see the information on these prototypically formed closure point rails here: http://www.proto87.com/product1932.html

Using and paying for the P87Stores 3-way planed points doesn't contribute to reliability, but makes the switch look like the real thing because the stock rails are not filed using these pieces, and it's easy to see from above.

One last thing as far as reliability and durability are concerned.  You may notice that I use a lot of PCB ties when building my turnouts.  I do this because I have a portable layout which gets taken down and set up frequently, visiting various local train shows two to four times a year.  Even if my layout was not portable, I would solder a few more PCB ties at the frog and at the headblocks than FT suggests.  I'd rather be safe than sorry, and inserting a PCB tie to reinforce my turnout construction AFTER it's installed, painted, ballasted and weathered would be a miserable job.  Better spend a little bit, take a few more minutes and do it while the turnout is still on the bench.

As far as appearance is concerned.  One of the things in both hand-laid trackage and hand-laid turnouts is the gap cut in the PCB ties.  Most modelers for some reason, put this gap right down the middle of the ties, and it becomes very obvious to the human eye that there is a pattern here.  When I lay my PCB track and turnouts, I use an oval fine file to barely remove the cladding between ties and I don't do it always right in the middle.  This makes the lack of copper between the ties less obvious after painting, ballasting and weathering.

When laying my rail, I have made a jig on a yardstick with stripwood positioners glued to it which are the correct width of the space between ties.  I mark every fifth slot, and reserve that place for a PCB tie, then position my wooden or Styrene ties in all the open slots between the PCB ties.  I take a piece of regular old masking tape that I've cut to be 3/16" wide and press it down on the ties in the jig and lift them out.  I spread yellow carpenter's glue on my sanded cork roadbed, then carefully press the ties stuck to the piece of masking tape into the thin layer of yellow glue that is on my cork roadbed using a rubber laminate roller. I leave the masking tape strip on until the glue is dry, the carefully pull it off.  While the glue is drying, I put a bunch more wood and PCB ties in my rardstick jig and continue onward.

After the ties are glued down and the masking tape strips are all removed, I take a sanding block made from 1" premium pine, to which I've attached at least 320 grit sandpaper, and sand down the wooden ties until I can both hear and see that I'm just kissing the tops of the PCB ties.  Wooden ties are thicker than PCB ties, and it's important to get them both the same height. 

I then solder on my first rail, taking special care to get it smooth and offset properly so the two rail will be centered on the ties.  A resistance soldering station makes this very easy, but a plain old electronics soldering iron with a wedge tip works well too.  Then, after this first rail is down use either roller gauges ( for Nn3) or ME metal 3-point gauges (for N-scale) to position your second rail.  Make sure that each solder joint is being pressed down on the PCB tie until the solder hardens.

Or my turnouts, I've started using strip Styrene for the non-PCB ties.  I scribe the tops of the Styrene ties with an old fine Zona saw blade, then hit them with a fine steel or brass brush to knock off any fuzz.

Photo (7) - East U.P. Center Siding at Emory, showing use of Styrene ties:


Photo ( - Another photo showing strip Styrene ties between PCB ties:


Hope this helps somewhat.  Remember that just because FT tells you how to make turnouts their way, it may be better for you to find a better way, even if it means spending a bit more time or money.  The important part is to please yourself as far as the way your trackage looks, and to please both yourself and your operators by the reliability and durability of your track.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[narrowminded]

Thanks, Robert.  That's a lot of info to digest.  I've got a fixture and some materials coming from Fast Tracks to take my first crack at it.  As some of the posts might suggest, I have been particularly concerned with this whole point thing.  The stock rail clearance but especially the throw bar being rigidly attached.  I looked at the Proto 87 link as well as your sketch and am intrigued with the pin as you show it on your sketch.  I had already considered soldering a tab onto the rail, not unlike how an Atlas switch is built.  A variation on what you sketched might be something to consider. 

As far as the rail clearance, I looked at some code 40 rail and boy, there just isn't much there.   I may get in the drawing program and see what I can conjure.  I suspect the point rail cut could be accomplished with a ball end mill from the bottom side and then maybe an .008" drill for an .008" wire pin, on the order of what you showed.  A cursory look suggests that those components might fit in the code 40 flange but it'll be tight.  To assure clearance for the wheel flanges the pin wire may need to be flattened a little where it's bent and soldered on the top but I'll really have to look at all of the latch up drawn in scale.  It also looks like the stock rail in your sketch has a slight kink in it right at the closing point and seems like there may need to be a small notch in the stock rail for pin clearance.  Some combination might also prove workable.  Gives me some stuff to ponder and look hard at when the materials arrive.  Maybe next week if I can believe the expediting report.

[robert3985]

Mark @ narrowminded , The "kink" you are talking about at the headblocks on the diverging stock rail, is a prototype practice most commonly called "joggling".  I noticed on period photos (1950's) of U.P. center sidings, that they joggled their turnouts in Weber and Echo Canyons during that time period, which I am modeling.

It's easy to joggle the diverging stock rail by using a flat-nose plier.

It isn't necessary to do this if your prototype didn't do it.  Since you are doing narrow-gauge track, they may not have joggled their turnouts.

Since you are building all of your turnouts with C40 rail, you won't notice that C40 turnouts get built a lot faster than C55 turnouts.  The reason for this is there is less metal to remove, so filing them doesn't take nearly as long.

I notice that FT recommends a 60/40 tin/lead solder with a rosin core.  I guess they don't have problems with it since they have been recommending it for a long time.  HOWEVER, I use 96/4 tin/silver solder, which is five times stronger than 60/40 tin/lead solder, so you don't have to glob your joints like the FT videos recommend you do at several places in turnout construction.

Also, there is a specific brand of flux I discovered many years ago which changed my soldering success drastically for the better.  It is Superior No. 30 Supersafe flux gel.  It is self-neutralizing, water soluble and it will give you the best solder joints on turnouts and track.  I wash my bench made turnouts anyway, but that's a bit difficult to do when laying track.  I've never had any acid problems with any solder joint I made with both 96/4 tin/silver solder and Superior No. 30 Supersafe Flux.  You can get both here: https://www.hnflux.com/page2.html   Using this combination will revolutionize your soldering experience, I guarantee it.

A couple of things that may not be clear in my previous solutions concerning point rail toes and durability.  For me, I really enjoy the "look" of turnouts that have hinged closure point rails.  They look vastly more realistic than "solid" closure rail turnouts without hinges.  In N-scale the torque created by the combination of "solid" closure rails and closure point toes soldered to a PCB throwbar is four times as great as an HO gauge turnout, because the length of the "solid" closure rails in N-scale are roughly half the length of HO gauge "solid" closure rails.  Also, smaller turnouts, for example #4's vs #10's also have shorter "solid" closure rails.  Shorter "solid" closure rails generate MORE torque, and in this solid parallelogram structure, the weakest link is the solder joints of the closure rail toes at the PCB throwbar.

In my older turnouts I built a couple of decades ago, I wanted them to look as realistic as I could make them (at the time) and still be durable.  I chose to use "notch" hinges at the closure point rail heels...which don't allow for any sliding.  This small parallelogram structure generated enough torque to make every C55 turnout on my modules fail every few months at the throwbar...even with my big, integral solder tabs at the closure point rail toes.  Interestingly, none of my C40 branchline turnouts have ever failed at the throwbar, even though their hinge construction was identical to the C55 mainline turnouts...AND, they were all #6's vs the mainlines turnouts being at least #8's.

The reason the C40 turnouts didn't fail was because the rail was smaller...thinner, and allowed the filed-down closure point rails to form an S-curve (Photo #1 ), relieving much of the torque from the soldered throwbar joints.  C55 didn't allow this nearly as much, and so C55 failed.

To eliminate this torque, you can install closure point rail heel hinges that allow the point heels to slip...like ME C55 #6 turnouts do, or using the P87Stores hinges...or making them like FT recommends using railjoiners.  If you install slip hinges at the point rail heels, the point rail toes do not need to be hinged, but can be solidly soldered to the PCB throwbar, and reliably so.

However, if you would like to use "notch" hinges at the prototypical location on your turnouts because of these type of hinges' reliability and electrical continuity, you will have to hinge your closure point rail toes at the throwbar.

You don't need to do what I've done, which is use both a sliding hinge at the point rail heels AND hinged point toe attachment at the throwbar.  I just like the way they both look!

Photo (1) - For clarity, here is what C40 "notch" hinges look like.  I file notches on either side of the rail, cutting thru both railhead and foot...and notch either side of the web just a little too.


I consider the integral solder tabs combined with the groovy "notch" hinges to be a failed experiment, even though the C40 turnouts never have failed...yet.  That's okay because I never liked the way the integral solder tabs looked.

On the other hand, my new throwbar hinges have been a total success, and when the gap in the middle of the throwbar is covered with a little "V" of paper, stiffened with runny CA...then the turnout gets painted...it looks nearly prototypical.

When I attach the wire thru the hole in the point rail toe, thru the PCB throwbar, it gets bent on the underside and is quite stable.  Although you have to learn how to do it, it's pretty easy to make this "hold down" tight enough so that neither the point rail toes nor the wire have any vertical movement.  I file mine a bit flat at the rail foot, just because I like the way it looks.  It may be a necessity with code 40 however.

Photo (2) - Underside of C55 throwbars showing bent wire tips underneath:


Although I am very happy with my stash of Railcraft C55 flex, hand-laying my Park City Branchline in C40 was a whole lot of fun!  In the Park City Yard, which is in Echo, adjacent to U.P.'s concrete coaling tower where the Big Boys and Challengers took on coal and water with perfectly maintained and straight mainline trackage, the lighter railed branchline, although rated for TTT's and FEF's, wasn't maintained as well...with the actual engines running on it being 2-8-0's, light Mikes, and later, GP-7's and 9's...then GP-30's with snowplows.  I purposely laid the yard with not-straight C40 rails, to contrast with the perfectly maintained Echo Yard in C55 Railcraft flex.

Photo (3) - Laying lightly trafficked siding trackage in C40:


Handlaying your track and treating it like a model opens up all sorts of possibilities.

And finally, a bit of Nn3 inspiration...

Photo (4) - My friend Gregg Cudworth's Nn3 RGS...the whole railroad in his basement!  Hand laid C30 ribbon Rail for track!

[Jesse6669]

Where does one source Code 30 rail? 

Amazing turnouts/trackwork by the way, I'm extremely impressed and jealous of the ability shown!

[Bill H]

Mark;
I have been building hand laid turnouts for over 15 years, with and without FT jigs and tools. I have never had a failure of the joint between the points and the throwbar. I use silver solder specifically at that joint. The attached pic is examples of both built from scratch and with FT templates or jigs.

I suspect that the flex in code 40 rail is sufficient to limit the stress on the joint. Have to agree on using Supersafe Flux. Highly recommended.

Kind regards,
Bill

[garethashenden]

I use silver solder specifically at that joint.
Kind regards,
Bill

Silver solder or silver bearing solder? There’s quite a difference, one melts with a normal iron, the other needs a torch, but oh boy is it strong.

[Bill H]

Silver solder or silver bearing solder? There’s quite a difference, one melts with a normal iron, the other needs a torch, but oh boy is it strong.

Silver bearing - 6% silver. Lead free. I have to max out my adjustable iron to get it to flow. To date, not one failure (writer knocks on wood)

Kind regards,
Bill

[jdcolombo]

Mark;
I have been building hand laid turnouts for over 15 years, with and without FT jigs and tools. I have never had a failure of the joint between the points and the throwbar. I use silver solder specifically at that joint. The attached pic is examples of both built from scratch and with FT templates or jigs.

I suspect that the flex in code 40 rail is sufficient to limit the stress on the joint. Have to agree on using Supersafe Flux. Highly recommended.

Kind regards,
Bill

Oh my!  That double crossover is just incredible.  I'd never even think about trying something like that!

John C.

[jdcolombo]

Ditto on the silver bearing solder and the Supersafe flux.  I also have had no failures at the throw bar in four years of operations on my layout, and I use Code 55 rail without hinged point rails on #4 and #6 turnouts.  The turnouts are thrown with a Tortoise using a stiffer throw wire (.032 music wire from K&S Engineering).  I thought the #4's might give me trouble on that front, but no.

John C.

[jagged ben]

Hey Bob, do you happen to know if the proto87 hinges are a problem for Micro-Trains 'pizza cutters'?

[Bill H]

Oh my!  That double crossover is just incredible.  I'd never even think about trying something like that!

John C.

John:
As much as I am indebted to your DDC install guides kind sir, coming from you, that is a doubly nice complement. It is an unusual double crossover matching a prototype crossover I was modeling and was done with a paper template that a combination of #5 turnouts and the appropriate crossing. Was really not that hard to do as it appears.

Kind regards,
Bill

[matze]

Where does one source Code 30 rail? 

The British 2mm organization has some to order if you are a member: http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/shops.php?shop_num=1

Rail: Plain Profile: Code 30 N/S: 10m Coil

It looks like they are going to discontinue it. I ordered some a while ago, and haven't gotten around to use it yet. But it looks quite difficult to work with: it's square in profile and will take a while to be straightened out since it's bent horizontally and vertically, so to say.

[narrowminded]

The British 2mm organization has some to order if you are a member: http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/shops.php?shop_num=1

It looks like they are going to discontinue it. I ordered some a while ago, and haven't gotten around to use it yet. But it looks quite difficult to work with: it's square in profile and will take a while to be straightened out since it's bent horizontally and vertically, so to say.

If it's simply square it sounds like this would do it.  Square Nickel Silver half hard jewelry wire.  20 gauge is about .030".  Other sizes are available. 
https://www.wirejewelry.com/nickel-silver-wire-square/20_Gauge_Square_Half_Hard_Nickel_Silver_Wire-15523-785.html