amtrak-csx-trains-collide-in-south-carolina-injuries-reported

[BCR751]

Human error, ouch. It sounds like someone forgot to line and lock all switches in the normal position before they went home for the day.

Exactly.  And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the responsibility of the switching crew to re-set the derail to the derailing position, re-align the mainline switch and report that to the dispatcher?  And, isn't it the responsibility of the dispatcher to ensure that this is carried out?  I don't see how PTC would have prevented this accident unless that system also senses the position of siding switches which are usually not connected to the dispatcher's panel.

Doug

[CNR5529]

unless that system also senses the position of siding switches which are usually not connected to the dispatcher's panel.

There is your answer. PTC is more than just a signal repeater in the cab of each locomotive. It is a network of wayside equipment that looks at signaling, switch positions, moving blocks ahead of the train, train speeds and positions, etc. and then tries to figure out if the crew in charge of any one train is setting themselves up for a problem. If the network determines that the potential for an accident is possible (over speed, misaligned switch,  crew not responding to signals), the system takes over and brings the train to a stop. PTC is an incredibly complex (and lets face it, costly) system to set up, as it is way more than just a new computer in each cab. In the end though, it will save lives. The type of accidents PTC will not be able to prevent is collisions with road vehicles at grade crossings for example.

[C855B]

Adam, please correct me if my "old practices" knowledge is out of date here. From what I'm reading so far, this is a "perfect storm" of errors and inattention:

• Crew from CSX train apparently left switch diverging. Whether this was properly communicated to the DS would be a matter of reviewing radio recordings.
• Signal reported "down for maintenance", which is completely different from "not operating". If taken out of operation it is possible heads were turned, which is to be read as not governing movement. If simply not operating and therefore dark, it would then invoke stop-and-proceed-at-restricted-speed per rules.
• The siding switch would normally throw a shunt across the rails if the siding track is not separately signaled and the switch is thrown diverging, resulting in a "stop" indication for the block. That it is alleged it was thrown and locked indicates that it was a non-signaled siding.
• The shunt should have caused an "approach" to be displayed at the previous signal...
• ...provided that the reason for "down for maintenance" did not also affect signal system communications. It is possible that the "down" could be problems in the cabinet and not with the signal itself, and the block (and shunt) were not being detected to pass the occupancy down the line.
• DS (evidently) gave instruction to the Amtrak head-end regarding maintenance issues at this signal and to expect it to be offline (turned heads), which is different than "ignore the inoperable signal," where rules would dictate "stop-and-proceed, etc."

There's too much we don't know and won't know until the NTSB review. My stomach sunk when I read of this accident, as unfortunately it is shades of a similar accident we had on the SP around 1970. A maintainer "temporarily" jumpered a relay in the cabinet, resulting in a "clear" on the main when the siding switch was diverging into an occupied siding. Three or four crewmen were killed in that collision.

[sirenwerks]

.

I am so tired of this argument. Japan’s is the size of California and France (the largest country in Western Europe) is the size of two Colorado’s.  The scale of size and economies between the two makes this argument ridiculous and uninformed. 

Just for a simple argument, imagine if 2-3 midwestern states could utilize 100% of federal tax dollars instate because they were their own sovereign country, especially if they could subsidize their national defense to the rest of U.S. like most of the free world does.

Yes, but the density of passenger rail traffic in either of those likely exceeds US passenger service.


As for the last part, so let's cut military spending then (and give it to Amtrak) and draw back to our own borders. Never heard of pink slips being handed out to military though, but it might be interesting because we will then need to downsize military staffing. Whoops, there goes the unemployment rate, up, up. Of course, all of the US military hardware manufacturers will love the spending spree caused by the arms escalation that occurs in the US's vacuum. And the media will have a field day with the stand-offs that occur soon after, and the new world order that results.  а ты говоришь по русски?

[up1950s]

No light signal?  What are you talking about?

A temp signal triggered to the turnout then wired to place that can be seen by the crew of on coming trains .

[draskouasshat]

A temp signal triggered to the turnout then wired to place that can be seen by the crew of on coming trains .

Thats why we have signal systems. It's to give trains time to stop before reaching the problem. A light at the switch would have maybe helped but with the trees abd the curve, who knows how far his sight distance was.
They used to have lanterns on the switch stand but a signal system is safer.

[draskouasshat]

Adam, please correct me if my "old practices" knowledge is out of date here. From what I'm reading so far, this is a "perfect storm" of errors and inattention:

• Crew from CSX train apparently left switch diverging. Whether this was properly communicated to the DS would be a matter of reviewing radio recordings.
• Signal reported "down for maintenance", which is completely different from "not operating". If taken out of operation it is possible heads were turned, which is to be read as not governing movement. If simply not operating and therefore dark, it would then invoke stop-and-proceed-at-restricted-speed per rules.
• The siding switch would normally throw a shunt across the rails if the siding track is not separately signaled and the switch is thrown diverging, resulting in a "stop" indication for the block. That it is alleged it was thrown and locked indicates that it was a non-signaled siding.
• The shunt should have caused an "approach" to be displayed at the previous signal...
• ...provided that the reason for "down for maintenance" did not also affect signal system communications. It is possible that the "down" could be problems in the cabinet and not with the signal itself, and the block (and shunt) were not being detected to pass the occupancy down the line.
• DS (evidently) gave instruction to the Amtrak head-end regarding maintenance issues at this signal and to expect it to be offline (turned heads), which is different than "ignore the inoperable signal," where rules would dictate "stop-and-proceed, etc."

There's too much we don't know and won't know until the NTSB review. My stomach sunk when I read of this accident, as unfortunately it is shades of a similar accident we had on the SP around 1970. A maintainer "temporarily" jumpered a relay in the cabinet, resulting in a "clear" on the main when the siding switch was diverging into an occupied siding. Three or four crewmen were killed in that collision.

You're pretty much on it.
My gut says, although amtrak blames csx for signal problems, this will come down to the engineer not following instructions abd rules.
Yes, csx f()cked up in steps leading up to this:
- trainmen didn't line/lock switch for mainline movement and put detail in derailing position
-signal system was not working as intended

The only way i see this as being a csx problem is IF
-this sub relied purely on cab signaling with no wayside signals
- this sub wad turned into dark territory (not happening with amtrak using it) and the dispatcher didn't verbally order amtrak to stop short of improperly lined switch (part of the track warrant) or dispatcher was told by trainmen switch was lined and locked
- signal system was jumpered to provide a clear signal for sombre reason to keep trains moving
- there's a few others but this post is getting long.

With how safety oriented signal departments are abd how much the fra looks at us, although I'm sure there will be violations, i still think amtrak is at fault

[CBQ Fan]

Yes, but the density of passenger rail traffic in either of those likely exceeds US passenger service.


As for the last part, so let's cut military spending then (and give it to Amtrak) and draw back to our own borders. Never heard of pink slips being handed out to military though, but it might be interesting because we will then need to downsize military staffing. Whoops, there goes the unemployment rate, up, up. Of course, all of the US military hardware manufacturers will love the spending spree caused by the arms escalation that occurs in the US's vacuum. And the media will have a field day with the stand-offs that occur soon after, and the new world order that results.  а ты говоришь по русски?

I would love to see the government fund Amtrak the same way the do all the other transportation modes.   It is a crime that they don’t. I am also in favor of a larger military. 

[up1950s]

Thats why we have signal systems. It's to give trains time to stop before reaching the problem. A light at the switch would have maybe helped but with the trees abd the curve, who knows how far his sight distance was.
They used to have lanterns on the switch stand but a signal system is safer.

The temp contacts are at the switch/turnout then a battery , then a long a$$ wire to a remote location up around the bend to a stake with a light on it . Kind of like a man with a lantern that never needs to go to the bathroom . If you turn off the safety system " the signal system " your responsibility to safety does not get turned off . Things are put in place on streets , and airports to caution of less than ideal conditions . A remote light on a pole was all that was needed at this location while the system was down .

[Maletrain]

NBC News was reporting this evening that the train control signals were down while CSX installs PTC on that section of track, and that the Dispatcher gave the Amtrak crew clearance to proceed.  Train speed was reported as 51 mph.

So, besides the irony of PTC actually contributing to the cause of this wreck, there are still remaining questions as to why the CSX crew left the switch set for the siding when leaving the train for the night,  and why the Dispatcher did not know that or failed to act on the knowledge.  The Amtrak crew seems to be not responsible for the tragedy (but still dead).

[sirenwerks]

I would love to see the government fund Amtrak the same way the do all the other transportation modes.   It is a crime that they don’t. I am also in favor of a larger military.

I would love to see the first too. The second wasn't in favor of a large military, it was to point out the USA has 1) overplayed itself in the world stage and 2) there's no realistic way to pull out of that role without some parts of the world collapsing into turmoil, or even the US collapsing into turmoil as it loses economic, scientific, and military dominance while others act with intelligence, even if not good intention, not hubris.

[jagged ben]

If you look at the drone footage I think it's pretty clear there is no signal at the switch that was thrown. 

Fault would seem to hinge on two things we still don't know:

a) the state of the block signal somewhere ahead of the siding
b) the instruction given to the Amtrak train

(That's basically summarizing what Mike and Adam said.)

[up1950s]

NBC News was reporting this evening that the train control signals were down while CSX installs PTC on that section of track, and that the Dispatcher gave the Amtrak crew clearance to proceed.  Train speed was reported as 51 mph.

So, besides the irony of PTC actually contributing to the cause of this wreck, there are still remaining questions as to why the Conrail crew left the switch set for the siding when leaving the train for the night,  and why the Dispatcher did not know that or failed to act on the knowledge.  The Amtrak crew seems to be not responsible for the tragedy (but still dead).

I don't agree that PTC contributed . Signal systems are shut down at times for reasons of maintenance or failure at times for various reasons . It is the nature of things that work , that sometimes they do not . Things that are important need backups . Not some well intentioned tower operator saying everything is good to go only because he didn't have knowledge it was not . If the signaling was down could that also mean loco / train detection was down . An accident could have left a car wreck on the tracks and the short ckt it may cause was undetectable . The NTSB failed to mandate a backup nation wide .

[eric220]

...there are still remaining questions as to why the Conrail crew left the switch set for the siding...

Careful there. Mistaking CSX for Conrail in this company could be dangerous...

[jpwisc]

Exactly.  And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the responsibility of the switching crew to re-set the derail to the derailing position, re-align the mainline switch and report that to the dispatcher?  And, isn't it the responsibility of the dispatcher to ensure that this is carried out?  I don't see how PTC would have prevented this accident unless that system also senses the position of siding switches which are usually not connected to the dispatcher's panel.

Doug

Correct, if the CSX crew had a track warrant or authority, it could not be cleared until the crew called in that all switches were lines and locked normal. If they fail to do so and leave for the night, you still can’t run a train through. Either the crew called it in without doing it, or the dispatcher presumed they did it and cleared the AMTK through. The CSX conductor is probably lawyering up as we speak.