PRR Baldwin Shark question for you SPFs

[brokemoto]

Someone posted to some forum (maybe it was this one) that the Pennsylvania's sharknoses spent their last days working the Delmarva Peninsula.  When these things were working that line, did the railroad run them A-A, A-B, A-B-A, A-B-B-A or what?   If the railroad ran them A-B, I would assume that there was someplace either to turn or wye them on the line.  If there were no place to turn or wye them, I would expect that the railroad would need to run them in some combination that had an A on each end.

I would wonder if train lengths on that line often required any more than two units, under normal circumstances.   As more than one railroad overpowered trains when it came to using somewhat less than reliable units (in fact, witness the Pennsylvania's using two passenger sharks on four car locals), A-B-A or A-B-B-A sharks would not be surprising on a train that would require say, two Electro-Motive, GE or ALCo units, in case one of the sharks broke down.  The sharks' users complained about frequent breakdowns when the things were fairly new, as it was.  As Pennsylvania's hung around longer than most (yes, I am aware of the two ex-NYCS, D&H, now under a tarpaulin somewhere in Michigan.), as a fleet, at least, I would expect that they broke down even more frequently toward the end.

[sirenwerks]

I wanna say A-As but A-Bs are visually floating in my head.  Unfortunately, all my books are in storage so I don't have access to the source of this info - Morning Sun's Trackside on the PRR Delmarva Lines 1965-1967 with John P. Stroup.  Grab a copy of that or someone who can loan you a copy and the mystery will be revealed.

[Spikre]

 
   don't recall seeing 2 unit lash-ups of passenger Sharks on the NY&LB,only recall single units.
  but that doesn't mean it never happened.
   this is the 62 to 65 time frame,later it was E7s,and they mostly were singles also.
   Bayhead had a LOOP,like a Model RR,walked it once to confirm what it was.
   earlier a line continued south from Bayhead on the solid land side of the Shore,but was long gone
  by the 69 walk around the Loop.
    never saw the Delmarva line under PRR,so not sure about what happened there.
       Spikre
         

[sirenwerks]

Just to clarify, the Delmarva saw no passenger sharks, just 4 axle freight units.  Passenger power at that time, while it lasted, were 4 axle Baldwin road units (RS12s maybe, can't remember), not cab units. 


I didn't buy the book because I was a Pennsy fan, I bought it because I was a Delmarva fan.  The Delmarva has a quiet Southern feel to it and the Pennsy in its last throws was running Fs and lash ups of 4 axle Alcos and EMDs, plus Baldwin switchers running branches; and ill-kept stations dotting between small towns and swing bridged river crossings.  Plus, a barge crossing at the tale end to Norfolk.  The one thing that kept me from modeling it was a lack of adequate traffic by the 60s (my era) on a line full of branches.  I still toy with the idea though from time to time, but would have to add industries.  The sharks weren't a sales point for me, I think they're ugly, but I might have replaced them with FAs though.

[brokemoto]

Just to clarify, the Delmarva saw no passenger sharks

That would not surprise me.  I would wonder if the track would take those things.  I used the example of the passenger sharks just to illustrate overpowering a train.   (Were there any B units for the passenger sharks?).

My question was about the freight sharks.   If they did run A-B, I would assume that there was some means of turning them on that line.   Considering where it was, I would guess that steam disappeared early on that line, thus steam facilities would have done likewise.  If the railroad took out anything that could have turned a locomotive, expecting that it would not need it, the motive power consist would have to be road switcher configured locomotives, or, if cab units, a combination with an A on either end.


..........and Spikey, I have seen more than one photograph of the passenger sharks in an A-A pair at the front of a four or six car train.   I have read and have had people tell me that they were so unreliable, that the railroad had to pair them because when one broke down, the other one could at least complete the trip.   The E-7s would not have had the reliability problem  Considering that the NY & LB did not have any really nasty and protracted grades, either, it is likely that the overheating problem that E-7s showed on hilly terrain would not have manifested itself in that kind of work.

[Blazeman]

My grandfather worked Delmarva for PRR. Would handle mostly passenger trains. He retired in the mid 50's and passed away when I was 10. Oh man, do I wish he had been able to live longer and share those details with me.

[Spikre]

 
  brokemoto,
   am saying what was seen in the early 60s.
  we usually went down there on weekends,so that may have changed
  the trains a bit,being shorter.
  the Pennsy Sharks seen were Singles,dont recall seeing any B units,but
  that may have been different during the week days.
  the CNJ also ran single H15/16-44s,and single Train Masters.
  rarely saw local freights,but recall them being CNJ powered.
   as to the E7s,did see more A-A set ups of them even on weekends later 60s,
  early 70s.PRR E7s were scrap on the hoof,and were not particularly reliable by 69/70.
  PRR did not take the same care of its E7s that NYC did.
   Meadows Shop didn't seem to do the Quality work like the Harmon Shop.
  this is from watching both roads circa 1970.
      Spikre
       
       

[sirenwerks]

If they did run A-B, I would assume that there was some means of turning them on that line.

If memory serves me correctly, turning occured at Seaford, and I don't remember seeing photos of cab units further south.  I checked Google Maps to see if I could find proof of a turntable and there's none, so I am pretty sure it was a Y.  There was a Y at Salisbury too, passenger service extended to that major community in the end.

[chicken45]

 

Someone posted to some forum (maybe it was this one) that the Pennsylvania's sharknoses spent their last days working the Delmarva Peninsula.  When these things were working that line, did the railroad run them A-A, A-B, A-B-A, A-B-B-A or what?   If the railroad ran them A-B, I would assume that there was someplace either to turn or wye them on the line.  If there were no place to turn or wye them, I would expect that the railroad would need to run them in some combination that had an A on each end.

I would wonder if train lengths on that line often required any more than two units, under normal circumstances.   As more than one railroad overpowered trains when it came to using somewhat less than reliable units (in fact, witness the Pennsylvania's using two passenger sharks on four car locals), A-B-A or A-B-B-A sharks would not be surprising on a train that would require say, two Electro-Motive, GE or ALCo units, in case one of the sharks broke down.  The sharks' users complained about frequent breakdowns when the things were fairly new, as it was.  As Pennsylvania's hung around longer than most (yes, I am aware of the two ex-NYCS, D&H, now under a tarpaulin somewhere in Michigan.), as a fleet, at least, I would expect that they broke down even more frequently toward the end.

They only ran in A-B-B-A formation on the Stockholm Branch.

[eric220]

They only ran in A-B-B-A formation on the Stockholm Branch.

Or in transcontinental service. 

At least they will if I can get four of them up and running. 

[chicken45]

Or in transcontinental service. 

At least they will if I can get four of them up and running. 

Eric, do you still recall the fateful night they crossed the Denver and Rio Grande Western?

[brokemoto]

I wanna say A-As but A-Bs are visually floating in my head.  - Morning Sun's Trackside on the PRR Delmarva Lines 1965-1967 with John P. Stroup.

Funny, I found an image on the cover of the referenced work online.  The lower photograph shows an A-A pair, still in "as delivered" paint scheme, passing the Clayton, Delaware station.

I do not know when the photograph was taken, but the freight cars behind the pair suggest mid-1960s or later.   Would that not be late for that paint scheme?  Did not all of the sharks receive the single stripe scheme earlier than most?   As troublesome as they were, which would have meant frequent major shoppings, I would expect that they would have been repainted before most other locomotives.

[eric220]

Eric, do you still recall the fateful night they crossed the Denver and Rio Grande Western?

Vividly, if you're referring to the alternate history. If you're referring to IRL, I'll need a link.

[brokemoto]

  am saying what was seen in the early 60s.
   the Pennsy Sharks seen were Singles,dont recall seeing any B units,but
  that may have been different during the week days.
 
as to the E7s,did see more A-A set ups of them even on weekends later 60s,
  early 70s.PRR E7s were scrap on the hoof,and were not particularly reliable by 69/70.
  PRR did not take the same care of its E7s that NYC did.
   
      Spikre
       

The Pennsylvania packed most of the passenger sharks off to the NY&LB to work out their last miles.  They were gone by 1964 or 1965.   The railroad did re-gear a couple for freight work.  Those worked their last miles in transfer/shuttle service around Pittsburgh.   I do not know when the railroad got rid of those.   

Pennsylvania did try to use some of those that kept their passenger gearing on Pittsburgh commuter trains, but the crews complained about them.  They liked the RS-3s. 

There were eighteen As and nine Bs.   They showed up in 1948 and became troublesome almost immediately.

I am guessing that the A-A photographs that I saw were taken on the NY&LB, but I do not recall the dates.

Considering that E-7s were available beginning in the late 1940s, by 1970, they would have been over twenty years old.  As both the NYCS and PRR practiced "deferred maintenance", I would expect that they would have been rather ragged on both roads by that time.    NYCs did paint a few of them in curious color schemes in the early 1960s and did try to run some on freight trains.

[chicken45]

Vividly, if you're referring to the alternate history. If you're referring to IRL, I'll need a link.

Mamma Mia!