Smoking Steamer in N scale

[TVRR]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised but my Concor 4-6-4 gave up the ghost today and produced an impressive amount of smoke in the process. Spookshow had mentioned in his review that they fried with very little provocation.  Now the question becomes where to find a replacement motor and what it should be. This is the first version with metal side rods and the large screwed in place weight.  The engine is quite old and I don't want to drop a lot of money in it, any suggestions?

[victor miranda]

you have picked " beating your head on a wall"
your questions is why me god?

TVRR,

your answer is pretty simple.
buy a slightly newer version when you have saved enough.

the motor you have is displaying a lack of magnetism.
If you know a slotcar enthusuast he may have a magnet zapper.
that will help and maybe your old armature is still good (I am doubious)
or you can hunt on the bay for another, like me.

the prices the motor commands is about 3/4ths of the replacement loco.

no path available is cheap.

it is possible to get the motor arm re-wound...
it only took me a day to get that job done on another kato motor.

If you have a great deal of love and are willing to spend unreasonable coin
it can be 'fixed'

best if you put the shell on a new mechanism.
that is the least costly.

victor

ETF an 'or'
 

[peteski]

Did something in the motor (a winding or the commutator) really fry/melt, or was it simply some brush dust mixed with oil on the commutator smoking things up?  If it is the latter, that can be fixed.

[victor miranda]

peteski,

really?  you are going to hold up a flashlight of hope?

this will be fun.

[peteski]

peteski,

really?  you are going to hold up a flashlight of hope?

this will be fun.

Why not?  If cleaning and oiling the motor (and maybe replacing brushes) fixes it, that sure beats rewinding ther armature or cramming another motor in it. 

[TVRR]

It stalled unnoticed and the volume of smoke makes me dubious that it's anything simple. I think that replacement is the only option really and due to the low, low price I paid years ago total mech replacement is probably the best.  I've had enough head against the wall time recently and "why me God" does seem to cover all the bases. A dead line out behind the yard will be it's new home. Peteski, if you want to have a run at rewinding it I'll send it to you post haste.  Thanks guys.

[peteski]

It was Victor was the one who mentioned rewinding the armature, not me. 

I was thinking of the simpler procedure of examining the motor to see if maybe the commutator/brushes needed cleaning.  As I mentioned, in older (and overlubricated) locomotives carbon brush used to accumulate in the commutator area and sometimes catch on fire and smoke.  A simple cleanup and lube job might restore motor to its operational state.

[victor miranda]

using enough current to smoke when stalled....
TVRR,

are you willing and able to dis-assemble and re-assemble?

the problem is not the armature directly.
the magnets in these motors are old and are ...weakened.

so even if the arm needs re-winding, it will not survive until the magnet is zapped.

I have been hunting such a motor for one of the old mechanisms I have.
I got it in a collection of failed locos.

If you want a replacement motor to run that loco,
there are some choices for the motor, many will fit in the space you have.
the mounting will be the struggle.
as I recall the old mount is a thumb on the left hand side with two screws.
....
 I'll go look.

victor

[pnolan48]

After three summers working in the GE clock factory, with a good friend running the armature winding machine while I carted stock all over the factory, I thought I knew enough about winding an armature to attempt rebuilding the motor of an MRC 2-8-8-2. This was at least ten years later. I spent hours carefully winding that thing, wiring it up with the least solder and heat I could muster, and ------ Nothing. Not even smoke or a buzz. I suspect they are just too small and delicate to rebuild.

And, when they really smoke, they are usually burnt to a crisp. I've only burnt out two or three over the past forty years, but they were unmistakably fried.

[mmagliaro]

Can you post some nice, close photos of that motor?
Will the later Con-Cor Hudson motors fit?  (I bet they do, but I only have later generation 4-6-4's
here now, so I can't check).

If the later motors fit, I may be able to help you out.
Photo please?

[victor miranda]

"metal screwed in place weight"...

Hi TVRR,
the metal siderods version does not have a screwed in place weight.

yeah, lets go with photos...
I'll try to get some photos of the versions I have up on the morrow.

If I had to re-motor one of the oldest type.
I'd use a b-mann spectrum 2-8-0 motor
make a ring to hold the center and .... the rear mount... I'd use brass wire.
that is about as quick and easy as possible.

the others versions can use a wide variety of motors because you have ears on both sides
to hold the motor as well as a lot of available parts.

can you remove worms from motor shafts?

victor

[TVRR]

I'll try for some pictures with macro tomorrow and see if I can post them. Please be patient 'cause I'm not real tech. I haven't had the mechanism apart but it looks simple enough that I probably can manage it although pressing a worm off the shaft may well be beyond me.  FWIW the armature still turns freely and  shows no signs of grease, carbon buildup, or scorch for that matter.  I was using a Kato controller and the circuit protector did not trip although the throttle was probably set too high.The weight I referred to as "screwed on" is as shown in Spookshow's pictures of the 1st run Concor, with the ear on the left.  Hopefully pics will make all clear. I really appreciate the efforts you guys are making to help bring an oldie back to life.

[victor miranda]

this one;


you want it running or restored?

running is another motor...
restored is a lot more cash.

victor

[mmagliaro]

... and it goes without saying that what Victor alluded to about replacing it outright is quite true.
The later generation ones from the 80s with the plastic siderods, better motor, and full
tender pickup are leaps and bounds better than these old ones.   You might be better off just
picking one of those up off eBay instead of repairing this one.   Just something to consider.

[peteski]

this one;


you want it running or restored?

running is another motor...
restored is a lot more cash.

victor

Kato really used THAT kind of motor back then?!

Looks like one of the Mehano Yugoslavian motors I removed from some of my early Model Power F40PH locos!  I still have some of them hanging around in my stash somewhere.  I wonder if those would fit this loco?  I also wonder if the magnets could be replaced by couple of the rare earth magnets readily available from many sources.