ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build

[mmagliaro]

Max, if you go to the top of page 3, you'll find my theory.... and dimensions. The FVM wheels are perfect for a 84" drivered big Hudson, both design and size, the trick would be to turn down the flanges while making the engine stay on the rails, and fit the FVM wheels on the thicker plastic ConCor axle. One would have to drill out the FVM plastic wheel center and put a brass collar on the axle between the wheel and the gear to fit into the CC frame. And then there's the question of pickup... There is no electrical connection between the rims and the axle... A pickup  wiper of some sort would be required, or a piece of wire soldered from the backside of the rims to the collar. And then there is the clunky CC valve gear which would need to be adapted to work with the FVM wheels...
Other than that, a piece of cake....
Regards, Otto K.

But Jason didn't make his out of a CC Hudson.  It is a GS-4.  What's the axle size on the Hiawatha
vs the GS-4.  That seems like the biggest challenge to overcome.

The rear driver on your engine is now the geared one.  The others are totally rod driven.  That makes this
easier.
The difference between 80 and 84 is so slight (.025"), that you may only have to move
drivers 2 and 3 forward by .010" and .020", respectively, and maybe grind a little off the flanges to make sure they
don't hit.  Doing that is not as hard as it seems.  (I filed my 4-6-2 slot by .015" to move a driver).

[Cajonpassfan]

But Jason didn't make his out of a CC Hudson.  It is a GS-4. ....

The difference between 80 and 84 is so slight (.025"), that you may only have to move
drivers 2 and 3 forward by .010" and .020", respectively, and maybe grind a little off the flanges to make sure they
don't hit.  Doing that is not as hard as it seems.  (I filed my 4-6-2 slot by .015" to move a driver).

Ahh, but that is so deceptive; there maybe only a slight (.025") difference in a linear dimension, but the area of an 84"circle, which is what our eyes see, is about 11% larger than that of an 80" circle...assuming the the GS actually scales to the proto 80". I don't own one so I can't tell.  Also, Jason is a good friend, I admire his work and I'm certainly not knocking his amazing modeling, I'm not worthy...  On the skirted Goose, the driver size will work. I'm simply looking for ways to model an unskirted 84" drivered Big Hudson and the driver size does matter, it's not a "slight" difference.
Here is a pic of a (supposed) 79" NYC CC Hudson vs. the 84" FVM Hiawatha driver:

[superturbine]

Otto, part of the reasons I start a build like this is in the hope that others will contribute ideas.  I really appreciate your analysis and you are 100 percent correct.  Hopefully you and I will be successful with our true 84 " FVM drivers.  Until then it will be very hard to beat the GS4 based mechansim.

Not a valid youtube URL [/youtube]

[mmagliaro]

Ahh, but that is so deceptive; there maybe only a slight (.025") difference in a linear dimension, but the area of an 84"circle, which is what our eyes see, is about 11% larger than that of an 80" circle...assuming the the GS actually scales to the proto 80". I don't own one so I can't tell.  Also, Jason is a good friend, I admire his work and I'm certainly not knocking his amazing modeling, I'm not worthy...  On the skirted Goose, the driver size will work. I'm simply looking for ways to model an unskirted 84" drivered Big Hudson and the driver size does matter, it's not a "slight" difference.
Here is a pic of a (supposed) 79" NYC CC Hudson vs. the 84" FVM Hiawatha driver:

I think we agree on this, but are saying it differently.  The visual difference between the 84" Hiawatha driver and an 80" GS-4 (or 79" Hudson) would be huge, I completely agree.  But the diameter differential is slight enough, that I think it will not require too much movement
of the axles apart from each other, coupled with a little flange grinding, to get the 84" driver in there.  Plus, since this isn't a production model,
you can really hone the play in the axle bearings so that the drivers/flanges can be really close together and still not hit.  The closer
together they are, the more prototypical (and the more impressive!) it will look.  There is typically only 6" between real drivers.
In N scale, that's only .0375".  If you allow for two .022" flanges, you're already at .044", so it is theoretically impossible to
set N Scale drivers at correct spacing unless you get the flanges super-fine (which is risky), or we just accept that the spacing
will be a little wide, but so slightly over-wide that nobody will notice (which I believe).

Oh.. and Jason... that video link did not work when I tried to view it.

[superturbine]

Driver size comparison between the GS4 and FVM 84" driver.


Max- Another thing to consider is the ride height change.  Its likely modifications would need to be needed to the pilot and trailing truck mounting points.  Also, when moving the drivers forward I only have so far to go before I am running into real problem on the GS4 frame such as clearnce problems at the front cylinders.  Since the rear driver is the Gear driven driver- the 2 front drivers must move forward.  And then there is the rods! I think I am starting to like the GS4 based build

[Cajonpassfan]

Jason, you are just too fast for my pace.... Whoa, he's got her running already! Nice work, even if its just the White Goose now can't wait to see her in two tone blue! You do know she was streamlined to be the protection power for the early Superchief...
Me, I'm stumbling along painfully slow... and I do hope you don't mind me cluttering your thread with my ramblings. While you got a running engine, I have turned down the flanges on mine and discovered a design issue. I need to figure out a way to replicate the collars on the back side of the CC drivers on the FVM drivers ( see pic). They fit into the CC bearings. They are 3mm o.d., 2mm i.d., and 1.5 mm thick. Before I start fabricating these myself from brass, is there something available commercially, preferably in stainless? Anyone? Some sort of washers?
Max, I get your point, and you are probably right, but I've already committed to the fixed wheelbase with lesser flanges and existing rods. Although if I go through all this and she won't stay on the rails, I'll feel really stupid, but I'm looking for that tight look of the prototype (see plan below: 7' drivers with 7'3" proto axle spacing!!!) I'm thinking on my model all the driver pairs don't have to have identical flanges; the lead pair is .022", trailing pair .020 and the main driver set, with the traction tire, yet to be determined but probably about .017?..?
Fun fun stuff!
Regards, Otto K.

[draskouasshat]

otto, I think I'm going to take the easy route on a big Hudson.  if your setup doesn't work out,  you could always wait on the fef  to come out and swap the fef boxpok  drivers  into a shortened gs4 mech.  it might be slightly off but im thinking you might be able to hide it slightly with the  look of the short stout boiler.
 the Kato site shows December 2014  on fef  parts including drivers.  I'll have to pick up a ton to swap out drivers on my Santa Fe  northern conversions.

[mmagliaro]

...
...
Max, I get your point, and you are probably right, but I've already committed to the fixed wheelbase with lesser flanges and existing rods. Although if I go through all this and she won't stay on the rails, I'll feel really stupid, but I'm looking for that tight look of the prototype (see plan below: 7' drivers with 7'3" proto axle spacing!!!) I'm thinking on my model all the driver pairs don't have to have identical flanges; the lead pair is .022", trailing pair .020 and the main driver set, with the traction tire, yet to be determined but probably about .017?..?
Fun fun stuff!
Regards, Otto K.

Hey.. good point.  The center driver can be almost flangeless if need be, to make it fit.  You don't want it blind, because it wouldn't look right.
But as long as it has a little flange on it, it will probably look fine, and it will not be needed to keep the engine on the track. 
GREAT idea!  No axle moving!

[mmagliaro]

Otto,
For your bushings, try this:
http://www.hobbyexpress.com/brass_tubing_3mm_od_31083_prd1.htm

Brass tubing, 3mm OD, 2.1mm ID (but then the description section says "2mm ID".
It's hard to know how accurate it is and what the bore really is until you buy some and try it.

K&S 9821 metric tubing has 3mm OD and 2.1mm ID.  Is it really exactly 2mm you need?
That 0.1mm difference is about .004"   4 thousandths... I don't know.  Depending on the tolerances
in the bearing bore, it still might work.  How accurately can you measure the old CC axles?

[Cajonpassfan]

Thanks for the suggestion Max,
I will pursue some options. The challenge now is to find time, I have this pesky daytime job that keeps getting in the way
I did some more work on the drivers last night, and to make it fit, the middle driver flange will be more like .010.....
Jason, I just read a post by Andy Sperandeo on another site (ATSF Yahoo Group) that the Goose was quickly determined to be too much of an engine to pull lightweight trains on the eastern flatlands where it was assigned (Chicago to La Junta), and was, along with the other 3460 class Hudsons often used on heavier mail trains like Number 7 and 8, the Fast Mail Express. Thought you might find this info useful, or at least interesting, as I did. She must have been a beautiful sight at speed, regardless of what was behind her...
Regards, Otto K.

[superturbine]

Very interesting,
I also heard a rumor that she had to take a right turn in Albuquerque and ended up in Cheyenne once!! .

Keep your progress going Otto and please post everything here that you come up with.

[Cajonpassfan]

Very interesting,
I also heard a rumor that she had to take a right turn in Albuquerque and ended up in Cheyenne once!! .

Keep your progress going Otto and please post everything here that you come up with.

Yeah Jason, that's right, I heard the same rumor! I also heard they had to park her on the roof of the roundhouse overnight account there were way too many other engines in town
And thanks for allowing me to impose on your thread.
Best, Otto

[superturbine]

Bahahaha!  Now that's funny!

[nscaler711]

Wow that's just crazy... I had a hard enough time just trying to quarter a Athearn Challenger...
But so far keep up the good work! 

[Cajonpassfan]

Well, the jury is still out on the 84" drivered mechanism.
Got the main driver flanges down where they need to be. Fabricated the axle collars for the main axle from brass. Had to turn the outside diameter to slide into the ConCor bearing block and then slice 1.5 mm rings. Piddly work, but doable with a bit of patience. Unfortunately, I couldn't remove the ConCor half axles from their wheels without damaging them, just saving the gear on a new axle. Couldn't find the right diameter (1.9 mm) plastic for a new axle, and styrene rod just doesn't seem durable enough, so I'm trying to reuse the 1.5 mm FVM steel axle wrapped in shrink tubing to build up diameter AND to insulate the drivers from the axle. Last picture shows mockup inside frame. A fair amount of work, but it fits without frame modifications.
To be continued, when I have time and patience....
Otto K.