Handlaid Turnout Update

[robert3985]

John, as for guard rails, I make my frog's wing rails "tight"...which means the nibs on the NMRA gauge don't slide easily through them when held perpendicular to the rails.  Then, I position the guardrails, so that the twin nubs are a tight fit when calibrating the "check gauge" between the wing rails and the outside of the guardrails.  This requires that all of my motive power is as "exactly" to NMRA standards as far as gauge is concerned as I can make 'em, and it's why I check every new piece of motive power before I even put it on the track for gauge.

Also, making the "check gauge" tight sometimes results in the clearance between the outside of the guardrails and the inside of the stock rail being too tight. This doesn't affect performance whatsoever as long as the gauge of the rails (between frog point and stock rails) is within tolerance.

I also use a thicker wire than that provided in the Tortoise box.  For some applications, where there was a 2X2 brace the 1" thick subroadbed was resting on, I've used a combination of small brass tubing, with the stock wire soldered into either end for extra stiffness due to a long reach.

However, I grind the tips of my thicker piano wire Tortoise wires down to .020" so what protrudes above the PCB throwbar is smaller, then I take my cut-off wheel in my Dremel and trim it so it just sticks up a bit over the top of the throwbar after everything is mounted up and working correctly.

I use ultra flat camo black Krylon to paint my turnouts, then spray the ties from directly above, or drybrush them using Polyscale RR tie brown or equivalent and pick out a few ties that are different colored.  Works for me and goes quickly.  Make sure you clean off the tops of the rails before the paint is more than 45 minuted cured.  After than, it becomes exponentially more difficult to take off.  The spraying lightly from directly above or the drybrushing gives the sides of the rails a brownish-gray color, which for me is just what I want.

Luckily with your closure point construction (one piece) you aren't worried about paint interrupting any electrical continuity...so just paint away!

I still check everything twice, with my NMRA "Gage", with my test truck, then with my test car.  Then, I install it and check it again with an engine and a little train made up of my worst running cars.  After I'm happy and everything is checked out and running "perfectly"....that's when I paint it.

I agree about the "Zen" thing.  It's very satisfying to roll your own and have them function and look so markedly better than what you can buy...and cost so much less on top of it all!

Ohhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........ 

[strummer]

I also use Jason's method of forming points.  It is the method I learned from Bob Cushman's turnout construction articles in MR back around 1955 and is very close to the method used by the prototype, as shown in this scan of a portion of Pacific Great Eastern's Drawing S 10-1-5, "Standard 16'-6" Split Switch, 100 LB ARA", dated Feb 2, 1970.
Note that the prototype bend is 1 1/4" in 6'-7 1/2" or about 0.007" in 0.5" in N scale!  Note also that the prototype drawing calls for the stock rail to be bent so that the actual tip of the point  is 1/4" beyond the running edge of the stock rail, thus making "picking the point" next to impossible.

I do not know anyone who intentionally raises the head of the point rail and the closure rail 1/4" (0.0015" in N scale) above the stock rail in the area between 5' from the actual point to the heel block (hinge).

Cheers,

Wow,this is starting to look like a thread on the Proto:48 site...very cool.

Mark in Oregon

[timgill]

A lot of great information and discussion here. Handlaying turnouts has become quite an interest for me in the past year or so, and discussion of the different techniques is really insightful.

FWIW, here is a link to a turnout build I did earlier this month that involved no PC board ties, only wooden ties and Loctite CA: http://thrifty1160.blogspot.com/. One of the key points of this method was that I pre-fabricated the frog and wing rails as a single assembly using a jig.

The other point is, that a small, inexpensive bench grinder (I got mine at Harbor Freight for about $25) cuts your filing time in half.

I have always used the fast tracks method (though never their jigs or tools) of filing two complimentary angles for the frog, and I'm often compensating for a lack of accuracy in the angle by "filling" with solder. Also, I am usually a bit frustrated with the clearance and fit of the wing rails relative to the frog point, which, as Jason pointed out, creates a larger gap for possible wheel drop as the wheels transition from the wing rail to the frog. I think my next project will be to try this bent-rail method, and forming the frog similar to the drawings posted.

In either case, handlaying turnouts really has become somewhat of a personal obsession. Not only is it satisfying from a personal standpoint, but it also helps keep cost down in one area of the hobby that can often get expensive fast.

[wmcbride]

Tim,

I have read your blog with great interest. Thanks for sharing your new turnout building techniques and the tip about the Harbor Freight grinder.

Bill McBride

[robert3985]

I also use a grinder upon which I've scribed the angles for various frogs on the tool rests.  I don't remember how much mine cost, but I bought it in 1976 along with my lathe to grind cutting tools.  It doesn't take long to do some of the metal removal this tool will work for, but using the "bendy" technique, I still use a big, sharp bastard file for the railheads.

[John]

A lot of great information and discussion here. Handlaying turnouts has become quite an interest for me in the past year or so, and discussion of the different techniques is really insightful.

FWIW, here is a link to a turnout build I did earlier this month that involved no PC board ties, only wooden ties and Loctite CA: http://thrifty1160.blogspot.com/. One of the key points of this method was that I pre-fabricated the frog and wing rails as a single assembly using a jig.

The other point is, that a small, inexpensive bench grinder (I got mine at Harbor Freight for about $25) cuts your filing time in half.

I have always used the fast tracks method (though never their jigs or tools) of filing two complimentary angles for the frog, and I'm often compensating for a lack of accuracy in the angle by "filling" with solder. Also, I am usually a bit frustrated with the clearance and fit of the wing rails relative to the frog point, which, as Jason pointed out, creates a larger gap for possible wheel drop as the wheels transition from the wing rail to the frog. I think my next project will be to try this bent-rail method, and forming the frog similar to the drawings posted.

In either case, handlaying turnouts really has become somewhat of a personal obsession. Not only is it satisfying from a personal standpoint, but it also helps keep cost down in one area of the hobby that can often get expensive fast.

thanks for the info .. how is the CA holding up?

[timgill]

thanks for the info .. how is the CA holding up?

Not bad. It's Loctite "Gel formula" CA, and it sets up pretty well. The turnout definitely feels a bit flimsier than one built with PC ties, but not too much so; once it is laid on the layout, I'm not sure there would be too much difference, since I use the same CA to attach wooden ties to the turnouts built in the usual way.

[Chris333]

I'd  be worried about the CA if you ever touched a soldering iron to those rail. Heat makes CA fail real quick.

[Cajonpassfan]

I'd  be worried about the CA if you ever touched a soldering iron to those rail. Heat makes CA fail real quick.

True, but like the doctor said to the guy who said "when I do this, it hurts" : "then don't do this!" 
Just don't touch the rail with your soldering iron after gluing it in place, wire it first. I've had some Acc'd turnouts in place for twenty plus years without a problem, in code 40 no less. We're lucky to have some amazing fabulous glues available to us these days....
Just sayin'
Otto

[jdcolombo]

An update on my handlaid turnout journey:

Yesterday I decided I needed a very small turnout for a switching area I'm adding to the layout.  A #4.  So I decided it was time to adapt what I'd learned from building a half-dozen #6's in the Fast Tracks jig to building a #4 using just a paper template.

And it worked!  I did use the Fast Tracks Stock Aid and Point Form tools to file the appropriate notches in the stock rail and file points.  I also used it to file a frog point, which wasn't at exactly the right angle for a #4, but I fixed that by filling with some solder.

Lessons learned:

1.  In some ways, using a template is actually easier than using the jig - Easier to get to the ties for soldering; easier to place a 3-point or NMRA gauge to check gauge.  The jig does have the advantage of precisely placing the rails, and is almost foolproof in that sense: if you place the rails properly in the jig, everything turns out in gauge automatically.  So using a template is a little slower, because you need to check gauge at each step of the build.  But not a lot slower.

2.  When using a template, don't solder the stock rails at more than three points (both ends and somewhere in the middle) to start with.  Why?  Because inevitably you will need to adjust the gauge after getting the point rails in place, and if you have the stock rails soldered down to 15 PC ties, you're in trouble.  The key to doing this with a template is to check gauge constantly.  Solder in the stock rails using the rail position on the template as a guide, plus a 3-point gauge at the end.  Then solder in one of the point rails at ONE spot, check gauge.  Move to next solder point, solder, check gauge.  Repeat until done.

3.  One thing that would be helpful is some kind of jig to solder a frog point at the correct angle.  I think you could make something pretty easily by simply using a razor saw to cut notches in a piece of wood or 1/4" masonite at the right angle.  Then you put the rails in the jig, solder the frog point, and it's ready for installation.  Soldering the frog point rails individually using a paper template is mildly difficult, though doable (it was probably made harder by the fact that a #4 switch is REALLY SMALL, and the frog point area is relatively tiny.  Maybe that's why the on-line videos of how to do your own turnouts always involve someone building a #8 or #10!).

Anyway, I now have a perfectly-functioning RH #4 turnout.  I tested it last night, and it's operationally terrific - even my big six-axle diesels will run through it as smoothly as if on solid rail.  It's amazing what building things to precise NMRA gauge, using real rail instead of stamped points and some care in construction will accomplish.  Yes, it's still time consuming - I still haven't been able to break the 3-hour mark from beginning of construction to the "wood ties glued on, ready for paint" point, but the operational benefits are undeniable. 

John C.

[wmcbride]

If you don't want to mess with making a wooden jig, would the FastTracks frog helper jig help?

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/Fast-Tracks-Frog-Helper-Soldering-Jigs-s/31.htm



Bill McBride

[jdcolombo]

If you don't want to mess with making a wooden jig, would the FastTracks frog helper jig help?

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/Fast-Tracks-Frog-Helper-Soldering-Jigs-s/31.htm


Bill McBride

Almost certainly.  The full turnout jig makes putting the frog point together a 1-minute job, because it holds both rails at the correct angle.  You just snug the rails up against each other, solder and you're done.  This jig looks like it is essentially the same, only just the point area.  Big benefit is that one jig covers three different turnout sizes.  I might have to get one of these myself.

John C.

[chicken45]

If you have the full turnout jig, you don't really need the frog helper too, right?

[jdcolombo]

If you have the full turnout jig, you don't really need the frog helper too, right?

Right.

John C.

[pastoolio]

Interesting reading! I always love to see how other people build their turnouts. Many different ways to accomplish the same outcome. I guess I'm old school, I still use wood ties and spikes and lay the turnouts to however the track flows. Here's a pic of a curved #12 on my layout  http://www.owensvalleysub.com/Maypics/layout%20(391).JPG

Mike