Handlaid Turnout Update

[Chris333]

I have had some problem turnouts at either the points or the frogs. Sometimes I just unsolder the rail and make a new one. Besides using the NMRA track gauge I also push a few cars and a locomotive through to make sure it "works". Some times they need a little tune up at the layout. I sand/file the bottoms of the rail to help the solder out. I haven't had the points pop off the throw bar (yet), but then again I'm not overly using my track. I would not call myself a pro, but would say whatever I can get built works much better than Atlas turnouts out of the box.

I wonder if you did something like buy a #10 point filing block to use with #5 turnouts, would that make things better/easier?

[DKS]

For some people Atlas turnouts 'work perfectly'.  And they're a mess.

Ah. Nice analogy. I can see where I stand. 

You cannot taper the rail from both sides without going out of gauge along one of the tapers.

One cannot discuss "gauge" without also discussing "tolerance." In other words, there must be a range of error--you cannot have a 100% perfect switch (no absolutes allowed, Robert--sorry). Filing from both sides, if the error is balanced, the maximum deviation will be .004", which is 5/8 of a scale inch--I believe within the tolerance range for 1:1 gauge (still checking this).

So, can we take a micrometer to one of your switches and find zero deviation from NMRA spec throughout? 

The bigger the rail used, the worse it is (assuming the rail head gets wider).  Perhaps this is why this method came out when people were using c100 rail in HO.  And perhaps this is why it's not really needed for N scale to get reliable turnouts.

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

But for larger turnouts, using one rail for the point and butting the other against it is essential.

I make a lapped joint like this for all of my frogs. I don't bother with bending and notching, however.

[jdcolombo]

Hi David.

I see from the photo that you file the ends of the guardrails instead of bending them slightly.  I like the look of these, and it would be easier to do when I'm not working with an FT jig (which has slots to do the bends).  Any particular reason you do it this way?

Last night I added a wire to power the frog, though the interesting thing is that even my small switchers ran through the turnout perfectly with the frog unpowered, which is something they will NOT do reliably with Atlas turnouts.  Still, I'm a big believer in frog-powering, so I'll do it with my home grown ones as well.

I've enjoyed the debate on filing switch points, frog points, etc.  My methods will probably evolve over time, but for now I'm quite happy with the way my Fast Tracks #6 turned out.  I just use their jigs and tools and it works; the key here is that it works BETTER than any manufactured turnout I've used so far, and I did it on my second try.  (Bob says it takes three; maybe the FT system cuts that down by one?)  It operates far better than stock Atlas turnouts (I can usually get the Atlas ones this good, but not without nearly as much work as building one from scratch) and it's been fun to learn the techniques.

I'll finish my contribution to this thread by simply encouraging everyone who's thought about doing this but dismissed it on the "too much time" or "I don't have the skills" or whatever reasons to give it a try.  It's like scenery - something else that I sucked at when I started in the hobby 23 years ago.  Over time, I've learned enough to be decent at this part of the hobby - not museum or artist quality by any stretch, but enough to be pleasing on a layout that really was designed almost purely for operation, not scenic interest.  I suspect my turnout-building skills will end up the same: good enough to produce something superior to what I can buy off the shelf, in a moderate amount of time, with the satisfaction at the end of "having done it myself."

And thanks to Bob, David, Chris, Jason and everyone else for providing the courage to undertake this.

John C.

[DKS]

Any particular reason you do it this way?

I did it to mimic a particular prototype style. Switches can be found with a range of different guardrail styles. The example I posted above follows this prototype style:



Here's a switch I made with guard rails having (more familiar) bent ends:



Note that I also notched the webs and bent the heads down, which follows prototype practice in some instances.



Some have sloped ends.



And some have no end treatment at all.

[jdcolombo]

Hmmm.

I guess the guardrails are an example of "there's a prototype for everything" rule . . .

John

[wazzou]

I'd bet Ian likes turtles...

Funny...I had the same thought.

[wcfn100]

One cannot discuss "gauge" without also discussing "tolerance."

Okay, lets talk tolerances.  One of the problems here is that you and I are working in different size turnouts.  You tend (from what I've seen in the last 7 years) to be at #6 or under and I start at #7 up to #12.  Some of those  error margins get magnified as you move to larger turnouts.

Here's a illustrative comparison between filing from both sides or filing to a true point.



The red is the area you are giving up.  You can see how much larger it gets as the angle gets more shallow.  This area is directly related to how much wheel drop you will have and on a #10 or #12 it can be a substantial difference.


Jason

[robert3985]

Okay, lets talk tolerances.  One of the problems here is that you and I are working in different size turnouts.  You tend (from what I've seen in the last 7 years) to be at #6 or under and I start at #7 up to #12.  Some of those  error margins get magnified as you move to larger turnouts.

Here's a illustrative comparison between filing from both sides or filing to a true point.



The red is the area you are giving up.  You can see how much larger it gets as the angle gets more shallow.  This area is directly related to how much wheel drop you will have and on a #10 or #12 it can be a substantial difference.


Jason

Jason, Well illustrated.  This is exactly why I go with the bent-rail filing protocol since I have numerous 8's, 10's and 12's on my UP mainlines.

Here's the west end of Echo to illustrate #12 turnouts:


DKS.  Not once have I ever suggested you go with Superior Supersafe #30 Gel Flux (available at H&N Electronics here: http://www.ccis.com/home/hn/).  Hey, you opened the door...    By the way, Superior Supersafe #30 Flux is the absolute, very best flux for brass/NS model construction I have ever used...bar none.

Joking aside, I really enjoyed your photos and your support for your guardrail construction.  Looking to the prototype to detail models, be they engines, structures, cars, scenery or track is an excellent practice in my estimation.

John.  You're a bit different than most modelers who start building their own turnouts.  Your level of research and commitment before ever even attempting to construct a single turnout by investing in the Fast Tracks jigs and fixtures is not the "norm" in my experience.  Most builders attempt to make a frog first, then progress to attempting to file points...just to see if they can do it.  When they discover that it's not all that difficult, then they either spring for the Fast Tracks stuff or they just continue on using paper templates.  You could be right.  Maybe the FT equipment shortens the learning curve, or maybe it was just your level of preparation.  Nonetheless, welcome to the club!!

[chicken45]

I just put in for an order of Supersafe #30.
...say, can we this on a TRW banner? It's starting to become a thing.

[engineshop]

Just my thoughts about "hinging"

I have been using Fast Tracks for a year and have built some HO 20 switches. I experimented with hinged switches but they were not easy to get right and the cars just run smoother on the uncut rails.
On a website I found this solution: Filing away the base on both sides of both closure rails makes them really easy to move. I remove about 3/4" since that is the width of my file but in N-Scale less will properly work as well. After the switch is painted, it does not show or much less than the hinged area of a switch. (Blue tie is the first one that the closure rails are attached)

[bill pearce]

Roland,
That's just what I did, file away a bit of the flange to allow more flex. And no, big ones didn't need it.

[PGE_Modeller]

For anyone interested, I'll post this one last time.



It's a better way.  But until someone else tries it, that's doesn't matter much.

Jason

I also use Jason's method of forming points.  It is the method I learned from Bob Cushman's turnout construction articles in MR back around 1955 and is very close to the method used by the prototype, as shown in this scan of a portion of Pacific Great Eastern's Drawing S 10-1-5, "Standard 16'-6" Split Switch, 100 LB ARA", dated Feb 2, 1970.
Note that the prototype bend is 1 1/4" in 6'-7 1/2" or about 0.007" in 0.5" in N scale!  Note also that the prototype drawing calls for the stock rail to be bent so that the actual tip of the point  is 1/4" beyond the running edge of the stock rail, thus making "picking the point" next to impossible.

I do not know anyone who intentionally raises the head of the point rail and the closure rail 1/4" (0.0015" in N scale) above the stock rail in the area between 5' from the actual point to the heel block (hinge).

Cheers,

[DKS]

Here's a illustrative comparison between filing from both sides or filing to a true point.

But for frogs, I do not file from both sides.

Next.

[wcfn100]

But for frogs, I do not file from both sides.

Next.

Nah, no next.  All the info has been put out there.  People can decide what's best for them, or if they're having issues at the points or frog, or general gauge issues, use this technique to eliminate those problems.


Jason

[jdcolombo]

I thought I'd do another post on the lessons I've learned after completing three well-functioning turnouts over the past few days.

1.  The Fast Tracks #6 jig seems to consistently get the flangeway between the stock rail and the guardrail a tiny bit narrow.  On my next one, I'm going to file down the base of the rail just a tad so that I can widen the flangeway just a hair.   Which brings me to this question: for those of you using paper templates, how do you get the guardrail in the right spot?  Trial and error?  Luck?  Use a spacer of some sort?  Just put it where the template says and everything comes out fine?

2.  Despite all the conversation here about switchpoints and frog points, I have had excellent luck using the Point Form tool for both switchpoints and frog points.  I should note that if you follow Fast Tracks' methods exactly, you DO in fact end up filing both sides of the switch point - you just don't file the inner side until the very end, where they tell you to "dress" the point to get it as sharp as possible and "flat" up against the stock rail.  So on my last one, I did this filing step before soldering in the point rails, and it worked great.  Not doing the "bend slightly then file" thing-y yet, though.  Similarly, so far the frog points have all turned out great, and operation through the frog has been superb - no wheel drop, much smoother than Atlas' Code 55.  It may be that a #10 or longer turnout would require much more care in this - I can certainly see how the longer switches would need a sharper point to avoid wheel drop.  But with the #6's I'm building, the Point Form tool just works, and I can file both frog point halves in about 5 minutes.  In fact, all the rail piece prep takes only about 15 minutes using the FT tools.

3.  I installed my first completed turnout on the layout, with a Tortoise operating the points.  The Tortoise puts a far amount of leverage against the points, even adjusted for as little movement as possible (I use .031 music wire for the Tortoise, rather than the flimsy wire that is packed with them, which results in considerably more force put on the points at the end of the actuation).  So this will be a good test over time of how the non-hinged points on a #6 turnout hold up over time.

4.  Soldering skills have gotten better, but I now see clearly the advantage of a resistance unit, where you can use the tweezers to hold the rail in place while soldering.  I haven't yet tried the "tin first, then place the rail and do final solder" method that Bill Pearce suggested, but I'm going to try it on my next one - I think this will help a lot.

5.  A good coat of paint (I use Pollyscale Rail Tie Brown) hides a multitude of sins!  I've just brush-painted my first three - it doesn't take that long, and once painted the solder disappears and the things look pretty darn good.  Still, if someone has a suggestion on a spray-can paint that is good for this, I'd be inclined to try it.  I'm not getting the airbrush out for this, unless I do 20 of 'em and paint them all at once!

This has been fun.  There's something sort of zen-like in creating the various rail pieces (frog points, switch points, guardrails, stock rails) and then putting them all together in a functioning turnout.  It's still taking me longer than I thought - about two and a half hours from start to painted finish, but part of that might be that I check the gauge and clearances at every stage and "fiddle" if necessary to get things right before moving on to the next step.  The jig certainly simplifies the process, but you still need to use your NMRA gauge a lot if you want to get things really precise.

John C.