Handlaid Turnout Update

[jdcolombo]

Hi everyone.

So today my package arrived from Fast Tracks, and here's my very first hand-laid #6 turnout:


Some observations.

1.  The Fast Tracks tools make this process almost foolproof.  I used the #6 jig; the Point Form tool (for both the switch points and frog point) and the Stock Aid tool (for filing the notch in the stock rails), and built this turnout in about 2 hours, while watching the various videos telling me what to do.  The next one will probably take about an hour.  The Point Form tool, particularly, is worth its weight in gold.  About a week ago, I tried forming some switch points and a frog point for a #6, and it was a disaster.  With the Fast Tracks tool, this took 15 minutes.

2.  I need to work on my soldering technique - too much solder in some spots, but I'll get this down.  Used a 96/4 silver solder and the Supersafe flux, with a Weller 35-watt iron and pencil tip.

3.  I didn't get the point rails exactly the same length, but the turnout seems to operate very well; I've run some MT trucks through it, and it is as smooth as silk.  Tomorrow I'll cut the gaps, hook up a couple of pieces of flex, and see how a six-axle diesel does.

4.  I didn't hinge the points.  This is something I'll probably do in the future, but I wanted to construct this one as simply as possible to get an overview of the process and technique. 

5.  Need to add a couple more PC board ties (the Fast Tracks PC board ties are superb, BTW - smoother and better-cut than the Clover House ones I have), then I'll use the Fast Tracks wood ties with Pliobond to complete the ties.  I'm going to install this on my layout in a switching area and see what happens over time.

For my first time, I'm satisfied.  If you're tired of waiting for Atlas, this system is your answer.  Expensive up-front investment, but if you need more than 15 or so of one particular kind of turnout, the system will pay for itself and you can quit waiting.  If I can get this kind of result first-time, then anyone can do this.  And if you don't want to spring for the jig, at least get the Point Form tool, which will make this critical part of the whole operation nearly foolproof.

John C.

[chicken45]

Damnit. I almost had myself convinced to stick with Atlas code 55 turnouts on my plan.
What's it like to wire these? What are the advantages over atlas c55 turnouts?

[jdcolombo]

Damnit. I almost had myself convinced to stick with Atlas code 55 turnouts on my plan.
What's it like to wire these? What are the advantages over atlas c55 turnouts?

Wiring should be exactly the same as an Atlas Code 55.  Once the gaps are cut, the frog will be isolated electrically; I'll probably attach a 24-gauge wire to the frog and power it from a Tortoise.  Otherwise, it is exactly the same electrically as an Atlas.

I haven't fully tested this one yet, but from my perspective, the advantages are (1) better operation; everything is in gauge; the points are rail, not stamped metal; (2) could be cheaper, but this will depend on how big an up-front investment you make in the tools and how many turnouts you amortize over that investment and (3) the biggest advantage is that THEY ARE AVAILABLE NOW, not next November.

You can get Fast Tracks jigs for #5's, 6's, 7's, 8's, 10's, curved, 3-ways, etc (although again, the jigs/tools are expensive and aren't cost effective for one or two specialty turnouts - but once you build one in a jig, you can see clearly how the process works and then could probably easily transfer the acquired skills to just a paper template).  If I were building my layout today, I'd have gone with a #6 and #8 jigs to build the bulk of the layout turnouts (I've got about 70 #7's and 30 #5's; these numbers clearly would justify the investment in the jigs; I used #7's and 5's because that's what Atlas sold.  Would rather have gone with 6's and 8's).

John C.

[bill pearce]

Take a straightedge and check the straight through stock rail. It looks a bit curved in the photo, but could be your camera.

I would add an additional PC tie on the other side of the throwbar. If that's code 55, hinged points are, well, pointless. Maybe on a number 5, but probably not on a 6 and for sure not on a #8.

And seriously, consider the resistance solderer with a tweezer tool. Then tin ties and underside of rail, hold rail in position with tweezers, tap the footswitch and you're done. Need to adjust guage after installation, is easier, too.

Advantages over Atlas? Every bit of the rail is hot. No stumbles.

[chicken45]

Wiring should be exactly the same as an Atlas Code 55.  Once the gaps are cut, the frog will be isolated electrically; I'll probably attach a 24-gauge wire to the frog and power it from a Tortoise.  Otherwise, it is exactly the same electrically as an Atlas.

I haven't fully tested this one yet, but from my perspective, the advantages are (1) better operation; everything is in gauge; the points are rail, not stamped metal; (2) could be cheaper, but this will depend on how big an up-front investment you make in the tools and how many turnouts you amortize over that investment and (3) the biggest advantage is that THEY ARE AVAILABLE NOW, not next November.

You can get Fast Tracks jigs for #5's, 6's, 7's, 8's, 10's, curved, 3-ways, etc (although again, the jigs/tools are expensive and aren't cost effective for one or two specialty turnouts - but once you build one in a jig, you can see clearly how the process works and then could probably easily transfer the acquired skills to just a paper template).  If I were building my layout today, I'd have gone with a #6 and #8 jigs to build the bulk of the layout turnouts (I've got about 70 #7's and 30 #5's; these numbers clearly would justify the investment in the jigs; I used #7's and 5's because that's what Atlas sold.  Would rather have gone with 6's and 8's).

John C.

Why 6's and 8's? Speed through the turnouts?

[C855B]

Why 6's and 8's? Speed through the turnouts?

Longer turnouts look better, run better, and are closer to prototype practice. In real life, a #4 is short even for trolleys. Prototype mainlines get #16 to #20.

[jdcolombo]

Take a straightedge and check the straight through stock rail. It looks a bit curved in the photo, but could be your camera.

It's the camera.  The straight stock rail is straight.

I've often thought about a resistance soldering unit; it would be useful for many other things, too.  But I do want to try to get my iron soldering technique down better.  I've seen/read some other instructions on turnout construction that suggest cutting tiny chunks of solder, then placing one of the chunks next to the rail to solder, instead of trying to use a roll of it.  This better controls how much solder you put in the joint and I might try this for my next one.

I've got to say that the Fast Tracks tools and jig really are what they're cracked up to be.  I couldn't believe I managed to do this well on my first try.

John C.

[jdcolombo]

Longer turnouts look better, run better, and are closer to prototype practice. In real life, a #4 is short even for trolleys. Prototype mainlines get #16 to #20.

Amen.  I run 2-8-4 and 2-8-2 steam on my 1957 NKP layout, and the 8-coupled steamers just run a lot better through bigger turnouts (not to mention the Big Boy, Challenger, GS-4 and Y3 that occasionally visit).  I'm thinking about replacing the #7's I have for my passing sidings with #10's, once I learn the construction technique a bit better (can't justify a #10 jig for 8 turnouts, so I'll have to use paper templates for this).

John C.

[M.C. Fujiwara]

Looking good, and glad you're rolling your own!
I started with a jig myself, and quickly realized that you could just use a paper template to make anything.
Just check out Evret's video tutorials: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL39AF9D2D08FCF4EA&feature=plcp

For the jig-built turnouts, I'd add the following PC board ties:



PC board ties in RED, extra in ORANGE (depending on following track), and iso cuts in YELLOW.

Just remember that the FastTracks PC Board ties are thinner than the Atlas C55 plastic ties, so gluing the whole turnout to a sheet of .01 styrene brings it up to flextrack levels.
(Cut out the section under the throwbar, however, as you want nothing to rub there.)

I also recommend the FastTrack Bullfrogs for turnout control: great mechanisms with frogjuicers that can punch through inches of foam.

Notice that your turnout shifts a bit to make more of a wye than a straight: very normal if you don't pre-bend your track and really file down both stock and point.

The FT stock-rail machine, BTW, undercuts the stockrail, which makes the point rail bend "in" when in contact, which, over time, pops the point rail off the throwbar.  So go easy on the filing of the stock rail, and go for more of a vertical filing rather than the angle the tool leaves you with.

Foods for thought.

[robert3985]

Take a straightedge and check the straight through stock rail. It looks a bit curved in the photo, but could be your camera.

I would add an additional PC tie on the other side of the throwbar. If that's code 55, hinged points are, well, pointless. Maybe on a number 5, but probably not on a 6 and for sure not on a #8.

And seriously, consider the resistance solderer with a tweezer tool.

The reason for hinges are twofold: (1) Cosmetic.  If your prototype turnouts have hinges, then your model (with hinges) will look more prototypical.  It's not actually the hinges that make them look more prototypical (for prototype turnouts that have hinges) but it's the kink in the open closure point rail at the hinge, which is really easy to see. (2) Slippy-slide hinges (modified rail-joiners or Proto87 Stores etched heel block/hinges) will extend the life of the joints if you decide to simply solder your closure points to a PCB tie and use that as a throwbar.  That's because they relieve all the torsion on those joints from otherwise having a solid parallelogram between the wing rails and the closure points without slippy-slide hinges.  As Bill pointed out, the problem is worse with shorter switches, but, it's still a potential problem until the solder joints break on any size turnout, then it becomes an actual problem.

An easy way to reinforce soldered-to-a-PCB-throwbar points is to fashion small, brass shallow S pieces where one side of the "S" covers what's left of the top of your rail foot at the throwbar, bends down a little then the other side of the "S" fits on the PCB throwbar, and the whole piece along with the closure point and PCB throwbar get soldered together.  It's not a complex part and it'll increase your build time by about ten minutes at first (making two of 'em per switch, one per closure point).

I agree that a good resistance soldering station with a tweezer would really speed up your build and increase your accuracy (meaning less adjustment to solder joints when the turnout is made and being checked for clearances and gauge.)  However, it's good to be well-versed with your iron and it'll work just fine for the time being.

Gaps.  I use a fine jeweler's blade in a jeweler's "brace" to cut my gaps rather than a cutoff disk in a Dremel.  Although you can get very fine cutoff disks, unless you're using a Foredom handpiece (or equivalent) your cuts aren't going to be perpendicular to the tops and bottoms of the rails because of the large diameter of your Dremel vs the small diameter of your cutoff disk, which forces your cuts to be at an angle.

I also like to put two PCB ties on either side of gaps for added mechanical strength.  Also, I like to make my frogs as short as possible and gap them where they would be held to their respective rails prototypically.

I agree with MC and Bill as to the added PCB ties.  I am notorious for using waaaay too many PCB ties, but I like my turnouts to be bullet-proof 'cause my layout is portable.

One problem I see with your turnout (which is VERY good for your first one!) is at the throwbar.  I see you have no headblocks (long ties) on either side of your throwbar, and the normal length tie that is past your throwbar should be further away.  The headblocks should be close to the throwbar, just allowing clearance for it to slide back and forth unobstructed, and the ends of your closure points should extend beyond the PCB throwbar and rest on the furthest headblock from the frog.  As on the prototype, positioning the headblocks this way will add strength to this vital and fragile part of your hand-built turnouts.

Also, unless you're going to throw your turnout with a rod coming up to one side or the other on the outside of your stock rail, the throwbar should be just long enough to be covered by the foot of either stock rail when open.  On the closed side, it should stick out about the same amount as the point gap (unless you're planning on an actuating rod for moving a target on a switchstand).  It doesn't need to be a long piece as you've built yours, but the headblocks should be long ties spaced closely to your PCB throwbar on either side.

Here's a photo of mine, which is more complex than yours because I'm looking for both prototype appearance and reliability.  Note the position of the headblocks and where the twin throwbars are located.  My Tortoise operating rod comes up through the hole in the middle of the first throwbar (which protrudes more on the switchstand side on the outside of the stock rail because a rod will get soldered to it so the lost-wax switchstand target will rotate as the switch is thrown), the second one is cosmetic...actually the wires representing "rods" are cosmetic and will be joined in the middles by a folded paper "joiner" reinforced with runny CA after they get laid and other details applied.  You can also see where the tips of the closure points are...both resting on the furthest headblock from the frog.


Lastly, CONGRATULATIONS!!  There's nothing quite like seeing your trains run smooth as silk through turnouts that you made with your two hands.  It's one of the most satisfying aspects of this hobby for me.

[3rdboxcar]

  Expensive up-front investment, but if you need more than 15 or so of one particular kind of turnout, the system will pay for itself
John C.

I would love to be able to build my own turnouts using fast tracks, living in the UK means once our tax barons have rifled your pockets for importing the items it means you have to build 54 points to match the cost of a peco point. [last time I worked out the figures]

Well done on first attempt, makes me jealous knowing I could do that but just priced way to high for me here.

Alexander

[jdcolombo]

Thanks for the comments and encouragement, everyone.

Bob G. - my points did end up a bit short.  The reason for this is that I filed the ends so much that the railhead split off at the very end, so I had to cut about 1/8" off, and they then ended up 1/8" short.  This is first-time error, and I know what to do the next time to avoid this problem. 

As for the headblocks, on the Fast Tracks jig, there are no spaces for PC headblock ties; they use wood ties on either side of the throwbar glued to the rails with Pliobond.  Of course, PC ties would be easy enough to add after basic construction in the jig.  The one thing I'd suggest to Fast Tracks is to add some more slots for "optional" PC board ties for those that want to add them during the initial construction process.  This might add a bit to the machining cost for the jig, but I don't see any other downside.  I think they didn't do this because their construction methods include adding a whole set of wood ties glued with Pliobond at the end of the build.  Their thinking is probably that this final step will provide additional strength without additional soldering.  But I've always be suspicious of glue; "screw and glue" is my motto for layout construction, and I trust the soldered rail more than glued rail (though Proto87 stores suggest using glue and wood ties only as one possible build technique).

M.C. - I did file too much of a cut in the stock rails.  Now that I can see where the points and stock rails diverge, I can cut a shorter notch in the stock rails for my next one.  I also notice the slight undercutting and can compensate in how I file using the "Stock Aid" tool. 

The one thing the jig build does is make sure everything comes out spot-on in terms of rail gauge.  There is one tiny spot where the gauge is just a hair narrow, but other than that, it's perfect according to the NMRA gauge (and the gauge between the frog and guardrails is similarly perfect).  I am anxious now to see how my engines operate in this environment; I've scrupulously set the wheel gauge on my engines using the NMRA gauge, so everything SHOULD be fine, and the MT and FVM wheelsets I use in my rolling stock appear to be right on as well.  We'll see.

To Alexander: if you want to go down the self-build route, I'd say you could get by with just the Point Form tool, which allows you to make perfectly-formed switch points and frog points in no time at all.  Then just use a paper template and some thin Scotch double-sided tape (surely they sell this in England!).  You'll also want some 3-point track gauges, also available from Fast Tracks, but these are cheap (about $5 each; get three).  You could build your own jig from wood to hold and solder the frog points at the correct angle, and from there everything can be done without a jig, just following the rail lines on the template.

I think I've decided to build a second one today, incorporating what I learned from the first one, rather than finishing the first one off completely.  Now that I sort of know what I'm doing, I think the second build will be faster and more accurate.

John C.   

[chicken45]

John,
What all did you buy from them? Did you get one of the kits?

[jdcolombo]

John,
What all did you buy from them? Did you get one of the kits?

I bought the #6 kit, plus the Stock Aid tool.  The total came to about $300, but honestly I think you could do without the stock aid tool if you have a grinder or benchtop belt sander, or even a good bench vise with non-marring jaws.  You could probably even use a Dremel with a cutting or grinding tool if you're careful.  If you forego the Stock Aid tool, the kit costs about $220, and comes with enough stuff to build at least 5 turnouts.  After that, restocking rail and PC board ties would be the biggest expense.  The kit also comes with their "quick sticks" wood ties - basically a set of pre-cut wood ties that you can glue to the skeleton turnout with Pliobond.  These are pretty expensive - about $6 each.  Bulk wood ties are very cheap, so you can save a ton per-turnout by foregoing this step.  Proto87 stores sells a jig that will let you cut a set of wood ties at correct lengths for about $20, and this is a tool I'll probably get at some point.

Here's what I figure a turnout costs using Fast Tracks supplies:

PC ties: 10 (includes two extra not provided for in the jig): Roughly $1.50, using the Fast Tracks Copperhead ties (cheaper if you buy bulk from Clover House)
Rail: 3 pieces of 18" ME Code 55: $2.25
Wood ties to complete turnout: $.75

So say about $5 per turnout with miscellaneous stuff like solder, flux, etc.

So if you spend $200 on tools (jig and point form tool; I'll assume you have a good 8" mill file, a suitable soldering iron, solder and flux) and make 20 turnouts, your overall cost is $15 each, which is about what an Atlas #7 will cost.  Over that number and you're coming out ahead.  And if you then apply the techniques to "specialized" turnouts using paper templates, you're way ahead, not to mention the fact that you then can build whatever you need for your layout design, instead of designing the layout (like I did) around what is available from a specific manufacturer. 

John C.

[wcfn100]

I'd say you could get by with just the Point Form tool, which allows you to make perfectly-formed switch points and frog points in no time at all.

But it actually doesn't as you experienced.

The reason for this is that I filed the ends so much that the railhead split off at the very end

That's nothing you did, that's how the tool works.  The only way to get a true razor point is to do it by hand.


Jason