January Micro Train releases have been...released...?

[bbussey]

...  But both put Rocky on their cars.  I want to see the photo of the prototype for that.  I have a sizable GN library and I don't find it in any of those books.  Did they do it just because he's so damn cute?

To be fair, MTL does work from published photos so it must be in one of the currently available books -- quite possibly the Morning Sun GN F&PCG (if it exists).  And, if you reference the RRPicturesArchive photo up thread, the patch-out next to the CUSHIONED UNDERFRAME lettering does match the Rocky profile.

[Sokramiketes]

According to some here a day late on their releases is worth getting up in arms about.

I'm always torn about the prototype paint scheme fidelity issue with any manufacturer.  I know certain roadnames sell, regardless if their correct for the car, loco, etc.  Should we expect these manufacturers to run correct schemes on these cars first when 1) they may not be big sellers, and 2) they need to recoup their costs as quickly as possible - thus the foobs that make them money out of the gate.  Foobs are a part of the business, and always will be.  Asshats are too small of a portion of modelers to think that we control what should and should not be produced.  Pretty sure FVM's had a post stating such around these parts awhile back.  And finally, no matter what we do here two things are likely to get repeated every month or so: MTL bashing.  Model Railroader bashing. 

And like the sands of time...

Riddle me this...

A couple observations about prototype fidelity versus foobies:

1) I was following the HO Walther's Passenger Car Line with great interest as it grew.  Prototype schemes for the car types chosen almost always sold out at Walther's first.  Even for "boring" paint schemes.  If the prototype market is so small, what accounts for the increased interest, through sales, of prototype cars?  And modelers overall seem to be less informed about passenger trains than freight!

2) Great Northern is the number one selling scheme at MTL.  At least it was at one point.  Is it still?  Now that more prototypical models are out and other manufacturers are making quality equipment, are the GN guys still buying anything with a goat on it from MTL?  If these end up as weathered models in a few months we'll have our answer.

3) MTL's market share is down since the 90's.  Significantly.  Do they really know the market?  You don't think they're asking the internal question as to how to gain back some market share?  You don't think they've scrambled?  Hobby shops used to sell out of MTL cars.  I used to see "discontinued" stickers put on MTL boxes when shops were notified that MTL was sold out of something.  Now I see them sitting around at shops for years on end.  I may not send flowers and chocolates with my suggestions, but I really do just want to see MTL turn the corner and make proper products that lead the market again.  I think a lot of people are assuming that MTL is successful and profitable and humming away.  How do you know this is the case?  I think there are signs that they arn't.  MTL's moves in Z scale are not those of a company happy with their market share in N scale.  One can assume that the foobs are to recoup tooling costs quickly, but what's the evidence?

4) MTL could make money off of every piece of rolling stock produced if they updated their coupler system and had reasonable OEM terms.  Sorry, I'm getting away from the foobie arguement.  But everytime I think about the built up potential at MTL the coupler situation amazes me.  It's more evidence that status quo is OK at the company and continuous improvement is an uphill battle that maybe only Joe is fighting over there. 

5) If the goal was to make a lot of money, then why are the gorgeous paint schemes not being rapidly released on the heavyweight passenger cars?  You don't think the Rio Grande's Aspen Gold and Silver 5-stripe scheme would sell on the heavyweight sleeper?  PLEASE.  There is not a lack of pretty, exciting, and popular schemes for these products. 

I just think there is a much larger picture here than any single example. 

[Atlas Paul]

There is a photo of these cars in the Four Ways West book on GN Box and Stock cars with the Rocky.  And the photo above it on the same page has the Rocky painted out, which is noted in the caption.

[DKS]

Another overarching concern from my perspective regarding foobies is that they're misleading. Presidents and states should be self-evident as fantasy schemes to everyone. But what of relative newbies getting into the hobby who have an earnest desire to model with reasonable fidelity? Until they're prepared to do their own hardcore research, they'll be relying on what manufacturers offer, and most will assume they're correct. When they're not. So now we're building up a cadre of modelers who have (needlessly) been fed a diet of inaccuracies. For the rest, it becomes rather frustrating to have to constantly fact-check products that could have easily been done right in the first place.

[mcjaco]

Riddle me this...

A couple observations about prototype fidelity versus foobies:

1) I was following the HO Walther's Passenger Car Line with great interest as it grew.  Prototype schemes for the car types chosen almost always sold out at Walther's first.  Even for "boring" paint schemes.  If the prototype market is so small, what accounts for the increased interest, through sales, of prototype cars?  And modelers overall seem to be less informed about passenger trains than freight!

In HO? Ease of modeling a train without doing any kit bashing or scratch building.  An entire train built with all the added on details, with no work.  90% of the market wants that.

2) Great Northern is the number one selling scheme at MTL.  At least it was at one point.  Is it still?  Now that more prototypical models are out and other manufacturers are making quality equipment, are the GN guys still buying anything with a goat on it from MTL?  If these end up as weathered models in a few months we'll have our answer.

Personally, I don't care for the GN.  Never have.  I don't understand the fascination with it.  There's far more sexier railroads out there. 

3) MTL's market share is down since the 90's.  Significantly.  Do they really know the market?  You don't think they're asking the internal question as to how to gain back some market share?  You don't think they've scrambled?  Hobby shops used to sell out of MTL cars.  I used to see "discontinued" stickers put on MTL boxes when shops were notified that MTL was sold out of something.  Now I see them sitting around at shops for years on end.  I may not send flowers and chocolates with my suggestions, but I really do just want to see MTL turn the corner and make proper products that lead the market again.  I think a lot of people are assuming that MTL is successful and profitable and humming away.  How do you know this is the case?  I think there are signs that they arn't.  MTL's moves in Z scale are not those of a company happy with their market share in N scale.  One can assume that the foobs are to recoup tooling costs quickly, but what's the evidence?

And there's also a handful more players in the market.  Thus less of a share.  I have no evidence that their struggling, much like you really don't have any to show they are, other than stock sitting on DP Hobbies shelves.  Much like a lot of stock from model manufacturers.  The economy hasn't helped any of them.

4) MTL could make money off of every piece of rolling stock produced if they updated their coupler system and had reasonable OEM terms.  Sorry, I'm getting away from the foobie arguement.  But everytime I think about the built up potential at MTL the coupler situation amazes me.  It's more evidence that status quo is OK at the company and continuous improvement is an uphill battle that maybe only Joe is fighting over there. 

No argument here.  I'm anxiously awaiting what's up DKS' sleeve.

5) If the goal was to make a lot of money, then why are the gorgeous paint schemes not being rapidly released on the heavyweight passenger cars?  You don't think the Rio Grande's Aspen Gold and Silver 5-stripe scheme would sell on the heavyweight sleeper?  PLEASE.  There is not a lack of pretty, exciting, and popular schemes for these products. 

Again no argument.  I don't always understand their releases.  Anything in ATSF, Pennsy, SP should shoot to the top of anyone's list. 

Can we go run trains this weekend, drink beer and discuss this??? 

[oakcreekco]

DRGW................you woke me up.

I would buy any/all heavy weights in the DRGW scheme.............if the paint matched Kato's engines.

Pretty simple................which Kato paint shade..................the "F's" or the "PA's"  LOL

[sirenwerks]

There is a photo of these cars in the Four Ways West book on GN Box and Stock cars with the Rocky.  And the photo above it on the same page has the Rocky painted out, which is noted in the caption.

Excellent!  The one book I don't have.  The three-book Scott Thompson color guide series sits on my shelf, but I didn't want to be redundant and buy the one Morning Sun book.  I know what's going on the book list now...

[sirenwerks]

Anything in ATSF, Pennsy, SP should shoot to the top of anyone's list. 

I believe that should read "Anything in ATSF, Pennsy, SP should shoot to the top of anyone's list???"

[BN1970]

  I learned a long time ago, as your layout gets bigger you have to make compromises if you ever want to see it done.  While in a perfect world there would be 100% accurate models for everything, this is not that world.  There’s another thread, on where N-Scale will be in 10 years on RW.  One things for sure I’ll be ten years older.  I’d rather get things done than worry about details that most people will never know.

  Granted I have been selling off my MT 40’ PS1 cars for the past decade.  Thats because for GN, the Intermountain 12 panel boxcar is correct.  The Hill Lines only rostered a handful of PS1s, hence the sell off.  But I ran those incorrect boxcars for decades in my monthly operating sessions as they were the best that were available at that time.

  So for me given that the Micro Trains 60’ Greenville boxcar is pretty close to what the GN ACF 60’ boxcar should be, I can live with it.  My two cars are on order.  Maybe in the future a 100% correct model comes out, then I’ll ditch these models and go for the newer better car.  But that may never happen?

  In the end it comes down to a personal choice and thats how a free market works. --Brian

[mcjaco]

I believe that should read "Anything in ATSF, Pennsy, SP should shoot to the top of anyone's list???"

No it's right.  Perhaps I should have written "Anything in ATSF, Pennsy, SP should shoot to the top of anyone manufacturer's list."

[wazzou]

RE: The GN cars...the Great Northern PR department started a campaign to patch out the standing "Rocky" as it was becoming popular to make him appear more anatomically correct.

A real "Mounting Goat". if you will.

[BN1970]

That could be problematic for the Graffiti series. --Brian

[Sokramiketes]

And there's also a handful more players in the market.  Thus less of a share.  I have no evidence that their struggling, much like you really don't have any to show they are, other than stock sitting on DP Hobbies shelves.  Much like a lot of stock from model manufacturers.  The economy hasn't helped any of them.

Ah, but there is evidence. 

1) Old stock being recycled through the weathering program.  If you've noticed the weathered releases are the same numbers as the standard run... the side road numbers are just obliviated with weathering on some.   If they arn't selling through the runs anymore... what other conclusion do we reach?

2) Z Scale.  MTL has attempted to move production into Z scale product to be a big fish in a little market again.  It worked in N scale, so why not again in Z?  They've also taken moves, such as eliminating OEM truck and coupler sales to other Z manufacturers, to try to limit competition. 

3) Stock sitting on shelves.  It's not just DPH, it's all Chicagoland shops and all shops I've visited around the country.  Now, maybe it's just the death of the collector market (Notice that N Scale Collector changed to N Scale Enthusiast?) that lets stock languish more.  Less people are buying one of everything just-because.  But doesn't that lead back to the fact that your product needs every edge it can get in the marketplace?

[Dave V]

Interesting thread!  Let's explore one difference between MTL and almost every other major manufacturer.

Assume foobie schemes help recoup tooling costs.  When Bachmann, for example, releases an M&PA prototype steam engine, they shotgun paint schemes so that in the first release you have M&PA and undec along with Pennsy, Santa Fe, and UP.  The proto modelers and the run-all modelers get their stuff at the same time.

MTL OTOH generally runs one scheme per body per release, which means their proto/foob calculus is different.  Maybe if they did one body multiple schemes instead like the other guys, it might be different.  Then again, it's kind of neat how you never quite know what body styles are coming until you get the Micro News.

An interesting example of the non-MTL process was when Con-Cor did the RGS Galloping Goose in N.  Although a few other shortlines had goose-like vehicles, the RGS was the only owner of the large body Goose with the Wayne bus cab that CC used.  It was released both in narrow and standard gauge in every foobie scheme imaginable.  If you were an Nn3 RGS modeler you were happy but others if us wondered how they decided to do something this obscure yet refused to shrink their HO PRR MP54 coaches to N, which could have been foobied convincingly into a lot more roads than a Goose.

It's worth noting though that the days of 50' gons being good enough now that 52' gons are available may be numbered.  MTL could probably do well to update existing body styles to correct lengths and heights rather than focus on new ones.  But keep the heavyweights coming!

[Mark5]

On prototype fidelity. In some cases I am confident that it is not realistic to expect 100% of your fleet to be proto.

Case in point: I model N&W. N&W designed (and largely built) all of their open hopper fleet. There are two hoppers in N scale that match N&W designs very nicely: The Atlas fishbelly 55t with peaked ends (perfect match for N&W HL class) and the Atlas or MTL 100 ton hopper (Atlas calls them 90 ton for unknown reasons) which match the N&W H11a-H11e hoppers.

So, for all the other classes of N&W hoppers (including the quite numerous H2a and H10 classes), I either have to use stand-ins (if available) or scratchbuild them myself. Who wants to scratch build 50 hoppers?

(N&W did inherit some hoppers through merger which have been available in recent years from Atlas and Bluford).

That said, this does not mean that I am all for releasing body styles in incorrect schemes when there are plenty of proto schemes  to be "mined".

Mark