Need SPF assistance: Operating the N 4th St Terminal in Brooklyn NY.

[S Class]

I have been hunting backwards and forward recently about going back into modeling American N scale due to the awesome products coming out and the borg like allure of the big blue, So I'm really thinking of a small/micro based on the Brooklyn operations based in the 70's-today.

Based on the discussions in Von Ryans thread about the Harlem terminals and Chris333's ill fated model of the Erie operation I rediscovered the more or less complete resource of all of New York's offline terminals which brought me to this.
http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/prrn4.html

So the keystone had a terminal in brooklyn but looking at the available maps gives only this
http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/prrn41905sanborn.jpg
Now the Sanborn maps aren't railroad maps but how the heck do you shunt a terminal without a sufficient lead track or a run around?

I'm guessing that the loco would be on the float bridge when brought over from New Jersey cars were simply pushed off the float like a hump yard, but that presents it's own challenges.

In short this is hardly a standard operation for the standard railroad so I'm wondering if any resources or articles/books have been published on this quirk? or if any of the SPF's have an idea?

[Chris333]

First. My Erie terminal isn't ill fated, just put into rotation with my other layouts. 

I don't think the cars were pushed off the float. The float bridge is up high because there is no float attached. With the float attached the bridge would be at whatever height the water was at the time. The loco would go out on the bridge to sink it down to the level of the float:
http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/err28floatbridge.jpg

It is possible not all track is present in that map. There is no run around. Once the loco pulled the cars off the float and on-to a track, the loco would then be trapped. There is a photo of the boxcab sitting on a tail track with a gas pump, that track isn't on the map. There must be others.

And at one time I thought about making one of those PRR boxcabs:

Now this IS an ill fated project 

[Chris333]

Odd there are no overhead photos of the yard since it was right next to the Williamsburg Bridge. Now it's Domino Sugar:
http://binged.it/Op2vom

[pwnj]

That's South 5th Street, Chris.  PRR's yard was at North 5th Street on the Northside Piers.  Regardless though, still strange that there are so few photos of a carfloat operation that was running until the mid-1950s.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Could they have been using the rubber tired switchers?

http://www.americanarchetypemodels.com/shop/pennsylvania-railroad-electric-switcher/

[Bob Bufkin]

Ed makes a good point.  I think I read that this yard was the first place they used an oil electric (later converted to diesel) on the railroad.  Had to do this because of NYC ordnance against smoke, etc. 

[jmlaboda - RIP]

"I think I read that this yard was the first place they used an oil electric (later converted to diesel) on the railroad."

An oil - electric IS a diesel - electric.  It was only after the introduction of the early freight units by various builders that the terminology was changed from oil to diesel.

[Chris333]

That's South 5th Street, Chris.  PRR's yard was at North 5th Street on the Northside Piers.  Regardless though, still strange that there are so few photos of a carfloat operation that was running until the mid-1950s.

oops. Few blocks off 

[Chris333]

While we are talkin'

 Does anyone have scale drawings of this cuttie:


I guessed my first try on this photo.

[S Class]

oops. Few blocks off 

Don't worry happens to me all the time I feed a NY address into google maps - oh you mean this location in South Brooklyn, no not there that place is Williamsburg. I don't understand the fascination with giving the streets numerical names, especially if you repeat those numbers elsewhere in the borough but whatever.

I am temped to believe that horses were used as that seems most logical but not very Pennsy if you know what I mean?
Ed K's probably on the mark, there is mention of 25ft radius curves and the engines needing a draw bar to move cars about, so maybe a box cab to pull off the float and the tracked units to move them around, I suppose what we need is a signal diagram or the online resource to one for an accurate map.

This and the New York Docks Baltic Terminal would make neat micros

[Cajonpassfan]

While we are talkin'

 Does anyone have scale drawings of this cuttie:


I guessed my first try on this photo.

Long island, short engines...

[pwnj]

"I think I read that this yard was the first place they used an oil electric (later converted to diesel) on the railroad."

An oil - electric IS a diesel - electric.  It was only after the introduction of the early freight units by various builders that the terminology was changed from oil to diesel.

Reason being was the anti-German sentiment after WWI.

[S Class]

Now this looks cool, might lay out a plan for it.

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/err28.html

I note that the Pennsy's Manhattan terminal at West 37th was laid out similar to North 4th street, but more photos exist and show what is most likely a run around.

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/prr37.html

[Chris333]

Now this looks cool, might lay out a plan for it.

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/err28.html

At one time I took an aerial photo for it, sized it to the size of that block (but in N scale) then started tracing track in CAD

Printed it out and started working.

[Chris333]

So since we are talkin' here 

Slim chance to find the Long Island boxcab drawings.

What about those PRR A6 boxcabs built at Altoona:
http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/prr3739053.jpg
They are a little bit fugly, but are there scale drawings out there ???