gluing down track ballast

[LV LOU]

Doesn't windshield washer fluid have detergents as well?

As far as I know,no,no detergent in washer fluid.It's mainly methanol or and water,with a little blue dye.The Methanol is to keep it from freezing,and does help clean bugs,bird poop,ETC,a little better than water....

[Flatrat]

As far as I know,no,no detergent in washer fluid.It's mainly methanol or and water,with a little blue dye.The Methanol is to keep it from freezing,and does help clean bugs,bird poop,ETC,a little better than water....

I looked it up a while back and it's hard to find exact ingredients across the market. the formulas vary, ethanol or methanol is the anti-freeze and a solvent, many brands use some detergent. I would think there has to be some surfactant used in most formulas to make the water 'wetter' otherwise it wouldn't work any better than water with blue food coloring in it. Definitely want to put it up out of the reach of small children. Poison control sites list blindness and other internal damage from drinking the stuff. Consumer advocacy groups/websites seem concerned about the amount of detergent in the stuff because of the overall amount out there since it's in every vehicle on the road basically and theoretically it ends up running off into streams etc. You should be able to find on line the Material Safety Data Sheet for the brand you use. walmart just lists methanol, others also include glycol, ethanol and list like 1% detergent or solvents.

All that aside, I still think I'll simply mix a solution of water and rubbing alcohol with a few drops of liquid detergent in it as a surfactant to settle the ballast and allow the diluted glue to flow down into and around the grit. Plus, that way I'll know exactly what I'm playing with on my train layout.

[DKS]

All that aside, I still think I'll simply mix a solution of water and rubbing alcohol with a few drops of liquid detergent in it as a surfactant to settle the ballast and allow the diluted glue to flow down into and around the grit. Plus, that way I'll know exactly what I'm playing with on my train layout.

Alcohol alone is a surfactant, albeit not the most effective; ethoxylated alcohol is more effective, but for this application alcohol alone seems to do the job. Plus, unlike detergent, it completely evaporates. And if you use 70% alcohol, it's already mixed with water.

[Flatrat]

That seems right to me David. the alcohols most of us have in the medicine cabinet are diluted and it states how much on the label. It seems ike most windshield solutions runabout 30% alcohol. depends on if it's warm or cold weather mix or advertises that it removes bugs and dirt too. i still think a few drops of laundry detergent couldn't hurt.

[Flatrat]

I guess we could continue to 'fly off the rails' here and 'split hairs' trying to remember upper level chemistry so we could discuss the merits of anionic and non-ionic surfactants, and their effects on model railroading ballast application but before you know it people are going to start using terms like Linear alkyl benzene sulphonates, etc.
Plus, this is model railroading so who wants to fly off the rails any way? And with my encroaching male pattern baldness I don't even like to joke about splitting hairs. Don't even pull out the gray ones any more.

I would like to hear other people's color choices for painting rails and ties and methods and if it's easier to do it prior to laying the track down or afterwards.

Thanks,

Scott

[DKS]

... this is model railroading so who wants to fly off the rails any way?

It's a common thing here on RW... 

[Flatrat]

I can see that and i got caught up in it too [guilty]. I think we've all beaten the merits of alcohols and detergents to death and when it's time I will experiment with both.

I'm trying to steer the conversation back now to the second part of my original post on painting track and ties.

Thanks again for all the great advice!

Scott

[MVW]

I would like to hear other people's color choices for painting rails and ties and methods and if it's easier to do it prior to laying the track down or afterwards.

Scott

I paint after the track and feeders are in place. Put a few drops of 3-in-1 oil on a swab and run it along the tops of the rails. I don't have an airbrush, so I use a small can of Model Master "light earth," which is brownish. One quick pass at a low angle. Another pass down the middle. Then I stretch a swab across a block of wood, splash a little rubbing alcohol on it, and give the tops of the rails a quick scrub. The paint comes off easily, thanks to the oil, provided you scrub the rail within a few minutes of painting it. Finish up by running the edge of a razor blade along the rails to remove any remaining gunk.

The proper color is debateable, and will vary by region. But the basic process works fine for rough and ready track painting.
Jim

[Flatrat]

Cool technnique. Thanks Jim. A can of MM light earth color sounds like it would be believable enough for most layouts.

It seemed like painting flex track prior to laying it down would be easier but I figured i would have to at least solder on the feeders before painting or otherwise...a mess.

Logically, it would seem like this step is right after mounting the track and prior to ballasting. Many people seem to use something like acrylic caulk for mounting the track to the foamboard or cork. Is that what you use?

You're swabbing the track with oil first as a resist to the paint. Have you tried to just paint it and then sand off the paint later or do you feel the oil is a key step?

[PAL_Houston]

... it would seem like this step is right after mounting the track and prior to ballasting. Many people seem to use something like acrylic caulk for mounting the track to the foamboard or cork. Is that what you use?

...

Actually, it is the ballast and glue that is holding the track to the cork, in my case.  I don't use caulk for mounting the track, but only for mounting the cork.
Up until the track is ballasted, it is tacked in place by track nails and/or by latex earth-colored base coat.

[MVW]

Cool technnique. Thanks Jim. A can of MM light earth color sounds like it would be believable enough for most layouts.

It seemed like painting flex track prior to laying it down would be easier but I figured i would have to at least solder on the feeders before painting or otherwise...a mess.

Logically, it would seem like this step is right after mounting the track and prior to ballasting. Many people seem to use something like acrylic caulk for mounting the track to the foamboard or cork. Is that what you use?

You're swabbing the track with oil first as a resist to the paint. Have you tried to just paint it and then sand off the paint later or do you feel the oil is a key step?

Painting flex after installation is especially important when the track curves. If you paint, then place it on a curve, all kinds of bare spots show up as the rail slides.

Yes, definitely solder the feeders before painting.

I use caulk, and I can't say enough good things about it. It doesn't take much, just a thin bead that you spread out to track width. I use T-pins to hold the track in place while the caulk dries. Some people just lay cans of soda (or beer!) on top of the rails. The beauty of caulk is that it will hold the track securely, but it's not impossible to pry it back up. I use caulk to place both roadbed and track. My layout is a slowly growing sectional, so every year I pry up at least a bit of roadbed and track to extend things onto the new section. I've been able to do so without ruining any track or foam roadbed.

PAL is correct, though. Once you have the ballast glued down, that's what's really holding everything in place. Your track won't be going anywhere without a nice bath of water to dissolve the glue.

I haven't tried painting without first applying oil ... because I'm afraid.  Wouldn't hurt to try it out on a piece of scrap track, though.

I've been a model railroader for decades, but have only recently gotten into the "painting track and ballasting" stage. It's not as tricky as it sounds. My advice: Develop a plan based on techniques other people have used successfully, then plunge in. You'll soon find your own unique way of doing things.

Good luck!

Jim

[Flatrat]

Thanks Jim. I had read a few places that a bead of latex caulk spread thin is a good program and could be removed if neccessary. One idea I saw was to use little patches of double stick tape to hold the track in place and caulk around it. Pushpins or other weights seem to be just as effective and I already own those things.
I'm already 'plunging in' as you say. I've been getting a little time on layout just about every day this week. The last few days have been painting backdrop which I will install next, then put the ply and foam back on my benchwork and hopefully the flex track will arrive in the post early next week, then I be solderin' and gluin' down track [yippee!!!]

Scott

[VonRyan]

Well,all the more reason to use alcohol..The alcohol is simply a wetting agent,it completely goes away with absolutely NO residue when it dries..When dish soap dries,or should I say,when the water dries,the soap is still soap.If you were glueing a chair together,what do you think would happen if you mixed dish soap with the glue? Would you expect it to stay together?

Well, i'm concerned about the alcohol' s dissolving properties in that it may cause the glue to... well... not be glue... that is since i'm using WS scenic cement rather than 50/50 white with water.

Plus, before i put any ballast down anywhere, i brush on an even coat of full strength white glue to give some of the ballast an initial hold and will enable the scenic cement to give a full bond, thus what my concerns are directed at is the alcohol attacking the full strength glue whereas the thinned out soap evaporates with the water. (The soap i add to water is already about 75% water since my grandmother add water to the full strength soap to get more use out of one bottle. Still cleans the same, and when in a 99% water mix for ballasting, it evaporates with the water, no soap smell remaining, and no sticky feeling.

-Cody F.

[DKS]

A friend of mine uses CA to lay his track. He swears by it and has even done a clinic on it.

Myself, I use foam-lined double-stick tape. I even built a device (I call Mr. Roadbed) that slices the tape in half on an angle, just the way cork is made.

You can see part of the machine to the right in this image (it looks like a giant tape dispenser):



Laid track looks like this:



One aspect of this method is that it's a blindingly fast way to lay track. You just pull a few feet of tape from the machine, position it on the subroadbed, peel off the top strips, and (carefully) drop the track in place. Run your fingers along the rails while applying a little pressure, and that track will not go anywhere.

[Flatrat]

interesting method Dave. Can you peel up the track at a later date? I would think once you glued it down with that type of double stick tape it was fairly permanent. The double stick tape i've seen in videos or articles to hold the track in place until the caulk sets is more like the Scotch brand stuff.