Just wondering

[wcfn100]

Pennsy is immensely

However, I take umbrage with the implication that the failed M1 from PCM was simply a lack of buyer interest.  There was a whole lot of shenanifoonery involved in the whole "Precision Craft Models" fiasco, and interest was probably never accurately measured.

I saw the meter. 

Dave, if it weren't for the Minitrix models, would you be a PRR modeler?  I guess I don't remember reading what your ties to the PRR are.

I think the popularity of the PRR was artificially inflated by the models available in the 70's and 80's (more so the lack of other east coast roads being made) and it's finally dwindled to the point where it's effecting new models.

Jason

[Sokramiketes]

Why can't anyone here stick to the issue?   This is not about diesels or rolling stock.   It's about people either leaving N scale or not even bothering with Nscale becuse they cannot get what they want.  Someone out there tell me that a Hiawatha will outsell a K4.    I don't believe it will so show me the market research that says it will.  The Hiawatha was made because the owner of the company was a fan of the Milwaukee road.  I have no problem with that.  It's his company to with as he wishes.  But don't tell me that someone spent all this money on researching the market and that was why the Hiawatha was made.  That is a bunch of hooey.  Market research today is limited to announcing a product and if the orders don't pour in then cancel it.   

You probably won't like the answer... but...

The Hiawatha is iconic outside of its geographic area because Trains Magazine started in Milwaukee and the Hi probably got a disproportionate coverage in the magazine. 

The owner of FVM worked for Intermountain, and remember when Marty was there and said PRR was a forth or fifth tier road in terms of sales figures?  So I'm guessing FVM had first hand experience (market research) that PRR stuff just doesn't sell well. 

So, I'll go ahead and say it: "A Hiawatha will outsell a K4".

PRR modelers are still the most *exhuberant* though!  Just be happy that everyone else is a Pennsy modeler simply because their large freight car fleet showed up on all other railroads.

[inkaneer]

Editorial:
Our thread starter is the perfect example of the RTR mentality. We have already pointed out a few ways to come up with a very respectible K4 from existing items and some effort yet he wants one available RTR. If he wanted a K4 bad enough, he could build one or contract someone else to do it for him. I know Max and Victor have both done various K4 improvements and bashes and Max just did a contracted one for Eric220 I believe.

Two things here.   Firstly, it is not just the K4.  It is the whole PRR steam.  Secondly, it is not about me.  If you read my original post you will see that the question which I have restated is whether we are leaving people out of N scale because we do not offer them what they want.  So they go to HO where there are 3 different K4's offered.   Listen folks and comprehend this if you can.   I just moved into a new home with a basement that measures 31 X 50.  I could have a nice HO layout with all the PRR steam I want.   I got into N scale because previously I did not have that basement and the only way I could run long trains was on an Ntrak layout.   So I got into N scale.  So all this talk of building it yourself is meaningless.   Times have changed and the situation is not the same as it was before.   Now, at this point there is probably more than just some of you saying go ahead leave Nscale then we don't have to put up with all your BS.  But as my original post indicated it is not just me.  It is a whole lot of people.  We are speaking of a railroad that some 40+ years after its demise still has either the largest or onew of the largest historical societies going.  How do you account for that?  That fact alone tells me that a lot of people are interested in the Pennsy.    You can't grow when you leave sizeable portions of the market to HO.    And that is exactly what N scale is doing.   People who don't get into N scale and instead go into HO don't buy all the other N scale items like track, switches etc.   Money spent on HO does not benefit N scale one iota.  So N scale does not grow.  HO does.  That guarantees that an N scale AS616 or H20-44 and alot of other models will never see the light of day.   Now will someone please provide me with the market research that says Pennsy does not sell.  I asked for this several times already.  Does it exist?  Show me.

[inkaneer]

I explain the first part by saying the second part is a fallacy. 

I too have yet to see any market research on the popularity of the PRR.   What I have seen is a failed PRR M-1 project, a poor selling Broadway Limited and the Minitrix PRR steamers no longer getting made.

Might be time to call a duck a duck.

Jason

The M1 was a fiasco from day 1.   Few people were going to commit to an engine from a company with no track record when companies with track records were also turning out junk.   The Broadway Limited did not appeal to a lot of people.  I, myself, did not buy one.   Passenger trains appeal to certain people who are a subset of the greater market.   That being said the GG1 sold a lot better than the Broadway.   Why?  It appealled to people who run both passenger and freight.  As for the Mintrix K4,  that it is no longer being made has nothing to do with it not being wanted.    Read Spookshows review of it.   Despite all of its flaws the mechanism remains in demand to this day.  Here is what Spookshow says about it [Because I know you won't check his site to read it for yourself]

"These models ultimately vanished from the face of the Earth around 1999 when Marklin bought out Minitrix and discontinued their line of USA-prototype models. They remain in high demand to this day." 

"They remain in high demand to this day."  Ain't bad for a 40 year old design I would say.

[Scottl]

I am often left with wonder at the sense of Ntitlement often expressed.  This is the golden age of n-scale, in my view.  We have an incredible range of highly detailed equipment, a range of track types and a good cottage industry making beautiful etched brass and resin components.  Never before has it been possible to model with high standards so many railroads and eras.  Of course, we always want more, but to suggest any particular group is hard done by current offerings at this stage is a rather hollow argument in my view. 

If someone is turned to another scale by the lack of offerings, that is always unfortunate.  I have been tempted on many occasions for the same reason and others, but n scale offers me more for my space and that trumps all other factors.  Clearly, for some railroads and eras, different scales offer better offerings.  Historical societies reflect membership with a range of interests, including those with no interest in modelling.  Given that, and that on average, 24% of modelers are likely to be n-scale, that suggests a relatively small potential pool of buyers for a particular unique model.

 I have no doubt (and no evidence) that the cited example of the sales of IM cylindrical hoppers resulted in the tooling of a relatively obscure, one-railroad diesel shell.  IM took the chance because their sales told them there was potential demand.  The second production suggests there was. 

The solution lies in making manufacturers know your wishes in a constructive way, and buying up PRR products when they appear.   If every PRR product flew off the shelf and there was a clamour for more, the manufacturers would notice that.  It is all about real demand or perceived demand.

[Scottl]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PENNSYLVANIA-RR-MINITRIX-K-4-PACIFIC-5-BACHMANN-PLUS-PASSENGER-CARS-/120814020079?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c2113a5ef#ht_500wt_1203

Looks like you can buy one and some cars for $100.

[rickb773]

Has Railwire ever surveyed the Prototype railroad its forum members model?

[Bsklarski]

I would like to see the figures from Kato for the new GG1. The first run was all PRR and it sold out. The second run was a mix, but the PRR schemes are almost out at my distributor. So if these GG1s sold that well, and they are PRR, I would imagine that PRR steam would do ok. You have to figure there are more people out there modeling PRR stream than PRR electrics.

just my 2 cents. Any thoughts?

Brian

[SkipGear]

Two things here.   Firstly, it is not just the K4.  It is the whole PRR steam.  Secondly, it is not about me.  If you read my original post you will see that the question which I have restated is whether we are leaving people out of N scale because we do not offer them what they want.  So they go to HO where there are 3 different K4's offered.   Listen folks and comprehend this if you can.   I just moved into a new home with a basement that measures 31 X 50.  I could have a nice HO layout with all the PRR steam I want.   I got into N scale because previously I did not have that basement and the only way I could run long trains was on an Ntrak layout.   So I got into N scale.  So all this talk of building it yourself is meaningless.   Times have changed and the situation is not the same as it was before.   Now, at this point there is probably more than just some of you saying go ahead leave Nscale then we don't have to put up with all your BS.  But as my original post indicated it is not just me.  It is a whole lot of people.  We are speaking of a railroad that some 40+ years after its demise still has either the largest or onew of the largest historical societies going.  How do you account for that?  That fact alone tells me that a lot of people are interested in the Pennsy.    You can't grow when you leave sizeable portions of the market to HO.    And that is exactly what N scale is doing.   People who don't get into N scale and instead go into HO don't buy all the other N scale items like track, switches etc.   Money spent on HO does not benefit N scale one iota.  So N scale does not grow.  HO does.  That guarantees that an N scale AS616 or H20-44 and alot of other models will never see the light of day.   Now will someone please provide me with the market research that says Pennsy does not sell.  I asked for this several times already.  Does it exist?  Show me.

For those that decide to switch scales, that is their decision and I don't hold any grudge againt them. It's their choice. Just know that for everyone that leaves N, there are 2-3 that are switching to N from other scales. Just this week at the shop I sold 4 different customers starting setups that are coming from other scales, 1 from O, 1 from G and 2 from HO. Our Ntrak club had a record number of newly interested member from the last show we attended, all switching from other scales as they are tired of hauling huge modules and collections to the shows. Most younger kids coming into the shop that want to get started, look at N scale first. Micro and Smaller is the buzzword in todays society and that is translating to our trains. My 7 year old son told me last night he wants to build a Z scale layout in his room when we get it finished remodleling...."Dad, I don't have the room to put the N scale layout I want in there."

[Scottl]

"Dad, I don't have the room to put the N scale layout I want in there."

LOL!

[Dave V]

I saw the meter. 

Dave, if it weren't for the Minitrix models, would you be a PRR modeler?  I guess I don't remember reading what your ties to the PRR are.

I think the popularity of the PRR was artificially inflated by the models available in the 70's and 80's (more so the lack of other east coast roads being made) and it's finally dwindled to the point where it's effecting new models.

Jason

The Excuse-O-Meter came along years after the announced loco never showed up and pre-orders were being cancelled because of lack of faith in PCM.  Hell, the company I pre-ordered from went under while I waited.

As for the second question, that's hard to say.  When I left HO for N in 2002 the market still had a bunch of Minitrix engines on it as well as the GHQ L1s conversion kit.  Both convinced me PRR was possible in N.  Absent the two I might never have made the switch to N...  or at least gone straight to Conrail in N scale.  Those Minitrix engines don't run well, but with some details they look pretty good.

In 2003 I won a bidding war on eBay for my brass K4s at the expense of two months' combat duty pay from the east side of Baghdad.  When I finally re-deployed home I was shocked at how poorly it ran.  But thanks to Lee and Victor it's now a stump-pulling DCC-enabled champ.

I will say this, and some may not like it.  The lack of quality-running, DCC-ready steam in N scale has made me a better modeler.  I'm no longer afraid to cut apart a perfectly good locomotive and bash it into what I need.  In the process I learned how to hardwire decoders, how to balance and quarter drivers, how assemble valve gear, and any number of other steamhead skills (though I am a rank amateur next to Victor and Mad Max Magliaro).

I'm convinced that as the Shapeways technology matures, conversion boilers are the way to go.  If you're hung up on driver size and spacing or valve gear types, that may not be your answer.

PRR freight sells like no one's business.  Perhaps it's because people have really taken to heart the saw that 10% of the national fleet was PRR in its day.  I have very little complaint regarding gaps in Pennsy freight in N.  Passenger, too, has been awesome since Kato and MicroTrains ponied up.  Bryan, I'm sorry to Kato, but I just don't need two Broadway sets, or I'd help them out.  I may yet buy the 4-pack expander set, but jeez, I'm working with an HCD...

So...  Would I be doing PRR without Minitrix and the GHQ kit?  I can't answer that.  Possibly not.  You can do a convincing 1960s PRR in N scale quite easily, but that's not the era that attracted me to PRR.  I've since grown an affinity for that era but only since I've been modeling PRR for some time.

Going to Strasburg several times a year as a kid and seeing those big, beautiful Pennsy steam locos in the museum made a lasting impression.  Between that, and my Long Island childhood...  The LIRR still uses position light signals, and keystones abound.  The Pennsy made the LIRR very much its child, and so it was as if I grew up along the PRR.  With most of my family a short former-PRR train ride to Pennsylvania away, my allegiance was set.

[bbussey]

... Now will someone please provide me with the market research that says Pennsy does not sell.  I asked for this several times already.  Does it exist?  Show me.

Time for you to get one thing straight here.  No one has to show you anything regarding how well Pennsy sells or doesn't sell, as it is obvious in the selection of Pennsy equipment that already is available.  What you have to show is your proof that there is an audience large enough to support N scale Pennsy-specific steam engines.  Manufacturers won't leave money on the table if you prove to them that it's there.  Yet, that is something you can't do or refuse to do.  If you have done the research to prove there is a consumer base to support your highly subjective theory, put a report together and make a presentation to the manufacturer of choice.

Not only are you asking for models of unique equipment of a railroad that has waning appeal, you're asking for models of a specific type of equipment that has no upward growth potential in the scale.  N scale is seeing more and more modern equipment being released because that is what younger modelers are seeing today, and all of the manufacturers are skewing modern to some degree.

If you want a K-4 for your own pike, or any other Pennsy steamer - time to start doing some modeling as opposed to accumulating.  That's what the HO modelers did for decades when something they wanted didn't exist.

[bbussey]

... PRR freight sells like no one's business.  Perhaps it's because people have really taken to heart the saw that 10% of the national fleet was PRR in its day.  I have very little complaint regarding gaps in Pennsy freight in N.  Passenger, too, has been awesome since Kato and MicroTrains ponied up.  Bryan, I'm sorry to Kato, but I just don't need two Broadway sets, or I'd help them out.  I may yet buy the 4-pack expander set, but jeez, I'm working with an HCD...

So...  Would I be doing PRR without Minitrix and the GHQ kit?  I can't answer that.  Possibly not.  You can do a convincing 1960s PRR in N scale quite easily, but that's not the era that attracted me to PRR.  I've since grown an affinity for that era but only since I've been modeling PRR for some time...

Was Pennsy still running steam in 1956?  New Haven wasn't, even though I have some steam models and eventually I'll build an I-4 based on the Con-Cor Hudson mechanism.

Regarding the passenger consists - most people didn't buy multiples of the Zephyr, Super Chief, El Capitan or Hiawatha either.  But many of those are on their additional releases or are sold out.

I agree that there is a riches in N regarding Pennsylvania in general.  Multiple road-specific rolling-stock models.  Multiple diesels.  One signature electric.  A myriad of detail parts to further enhance.  Pennsy modelers have it better than most of the other roads.  In fact, only ATSF and UP might be better in that department, and even they don't have a fleet of specific N scale steam models based on them.

[Dave V]

Bryan, 1956 was my chosen year because it was the last full year of steam on Pennsy.  In fact, thousands of PRR steam locos continued to run up until November 1957.

Again, I think I said this earlier in the thread...  Any serious consideration I gave to retreating back to HO after my Air Force service is over ended with Kato's GG1 (and to a lesser extent the Broadway).  I am appreciative that Kato made the leap and am very sorry if they didn't meet their expectations.  Odd, because I had my layout at a small-ish train show in Omaha, NE (which is 100% dyed-in-the-wool UP territory, obviously), and 3 of the 4 N scale layouts had GG1s with Broadway Limiteds behind.

Honestly, this discussion seems to suggest that only Eastern steam-era railroads like PRR and B&O are market gaps...  How about all those NS Dash-9s I don't see on the market yet are seemingly numbered in the billions on the real NS?

[bbussey]

... Honestly, this discussion seems to suggest that only Eastern steam-era railroads like PRR and B&O are market gaps...  How about all those NS Dash-9s I don't see on the market yet are seemingly numbered in the billions on the real NS?

That's exactly the point that some people seem to overlook.  There are a lot of gaps in a lot of areas.  There are gaps in HO as well, just not as much.  Since N scale really lurched forward with the introduction of the Atlas RS-3, it's understandable that you juxtapose the last 30 years of N with the last 60 years of HO there will be more gaps in N.