KATO and the EAST

[packers#1]

There in lies the rub.  Look at Atlas' product line, other than a few notable exceptions, there is a lot of four axle stuff you would typically find on a shortline.  They are also focused on older units before most six axle units were on the market therefore used in greater numbers by more roads.  Kato is almost all six axle units that the major roads have started relying on more and more but true shortlines can't afford to use.  So now your limited to Class 1 roads primarily past the 70's when the multitude of Eastern roads started merging. 

Just my look at it.

Good point, but that still leaves, among others, roads like the Southern, Family Lines, Norfolk Southern, CSX, Conrail, PC, and Reading and Northern that Kato could make runs of, just off the top of my head.And since Kato's models aren't really offered by anyone else, except for FVM and the GEVOs, there's no competition, so that seems like a huge hole up for them. I haven't needed much modern 6 axle power yet, but I may go modern-day NS, and for that I'd want some SD70ACes or GEVO's, at least to make a guest appearance now and then

[jnevis]

I just got this back from KATO

" All decisions relating to what products get manufactured are made here, in
the United States, by the US staff.

Regards,

Michael Conway
"

That may be true, but the final decision to produce the model is ultimately Kato Japan since it's thier machines.  They also sell those models to overseas buyers.  I remember seeing Kato US units on the shelves in Japan and in Hong Kong almost 20 years ago.  They are more interested in models that they recognize. To them PRR or even CSX units are like our view of Kiesei or KHK, a few people know who they are but they are few and far between.  JNR and UP are the biggest around in thier eyes. 

[bbussey]

I still think the big thing that hurt the BL was two parts of bad timing.  I know I ordered it expecting it around Christmas.  It didn't arrive until the following Christmas.  Two years basically, I almost lost interest.  The other was the crash of the economy.  I know that was when I was busy picking up steals on EBay.  Drawn out interest waining combined with oh crap am I going to lose my job tomorrow was not good for BL sales.  By the time it came around they had a new release advertised and there were plenty of BL sets to be had from your LHS.

Except most of the other consists have had multiple releases since the Broadway, so while the economy certainly played a factor it can't be the primary reason.

[SkipGear]

What eastern model has Athearn and FVM made. Both have a bigger western byas than Kato.

Really??? You actually are going there??

Athearn does as many east coast pieces of rolling stock as anybody, I have probably 50 of their hoppers alone, both 3 bay and covered in B&O and C&O. What about all those shortline boxcars, EEC anyone? Where else are you going to get a Susquehenna SD70M? Kato sure isn't going to do it. It's not to say Athearn isn't in bed with the UP with all the recent HO offerings but they still know that there are rails east of the Mississippi.

FVM just hit one out of the park with the B&O Wagontop boxcar, sold out most everywhere in both scales. You really can't get more eastern than that. They have done as many NS, CSX, and CP releases of the GEVO as any other road. I don't really consider the Milwaukee stuff western, more of a midwest thing also.


Broadway and the GG-1 -

Anybody that thinks the GG-1 was a hit needs to look at it from another pespective. None of the schemes have sold out very fast. The only ones to sell out are the original Green 5 stripe and the Tuscan 5 stripe. They just keep adding more paint schemes. My feeling is that they are cranking out shells and reboxing unsold units at the warehouse with new, updated shells to keep the frames moving out the door. I think they overproduced frames and now are coming up with schemes to use them up.

Face it, the Broadway was an ugly train compared to the Daylight and other silver trains that Kato has done. It was brown, and a plastic looking brown at that. The only people we have sold them to at the shop were PRR fans. Daylights, Chiefs and Zephyrs on the other hand have gone to modelers of all era's and locations. I would have bought one myself if they had chosen a train with steam power in front and I still entertain the idea of building up a Trix K4 that I have stashed away to do one myself.

I'm setting here looking at a Kato in stock list...

Daylight - sold out (GS-4's available)
Chief - sold out
El Capitan - sold out
Cal Zephyr - in stock (recent re run, 5th or 6th production? I've lost count.)
COLA - in stock (from original production)
Broadway - in stock (from original production)
PC set - in stock
Amtrak 4 car set - in stock
All GG-1's except tuscan and green 5 stripe -  in stock (more green on the way)

BTW - Most of the Amtrak stuff is in stock also, it's not really flying off the shelves.

The true test for Kato will be two fold, the upcomming Indiana Railway SD90/43MAC and the VRE Commuter set. They may be testing the waters again.

[sundowner]

Really??? You actually are going there??

Yes, I went there.

Look at all the incorrect GEVOS that were basically repaints of BNSF or UP units, only reason CP were correct is because the CP modeler were not going to buy them when the picture of the proto were posted. Also any easter roads run a GP60M, did not think so. FVM has a clear BNSF western byas.

Athearn not so bad but look at all there loco releases, they are mostly western road that some eastern road bought.

Atlas is the only one that does easter road on a consisten basis.

[bbussey]

You can't just look at motive power.  You have to look at the entire product line.  Both Athearn and Fox Valley, as does Kato, release eastern schemes and eastern prototypes.  The Amtrak Viewliner is eastern-based.  The B&O Wagontop is distinctively eastern, as is the GG-1.

This thread started out as a faux indictment of Kato not producing eastern passenger consists.  It's ridiculous to state that the manufacturers have a bias toward eastern prototypes, because there is overwhelming evidence to refute it.  You can't name one major manufacturer, or one of the smaller manufacturers, that has not released products based on eastern schemes and/or prototypes.
 

[victor miranda]

Hi skipgear,
good post.

your list seems about what I had decided about
what is sold out.

I think the COLAs will be gone before the BL is done
so I am not really thinking kato is going the wrong way
in terms of passenger trains.

I am a little steamed that my decision to blow what was
a big pice of my train collecting cash on a passenger train and matching loco
only to find that decision helped inflate the sales number
when compared to the BL. 
Iffin I'd known that data was going to be used to slam eastern road name sales
I may well have two BL sets.... ooof ( maybe not...)

as for VRE, I'll hold my breath for MARC.

what I want is for Kato to realize is that I purchased a Kato steamer
and decided I'd like the train to haul.
the BL set didn't have a steam loco.

v

[victor miranda]

You can't just look at motive power.  You have to look at the entire product line.  Both Athearn and Fox Valley, as does Kato, release eastern schemes and eastern prototypes.  The Amtrak Viewliner is eastern-based.  The B&O Wagontop is distinctively eastern, as is the GG-1.

This thread started out as a faux indictment of Kato not producing eastern passenger consists.  It's ridiculous to state that the manufacturers have a bias toward eastern prototypes, because there is overwhelming evidence to refute it.  You can't name one major manufacturer, or one of the smaller manufacturers, that has not released products based on eastern schemes and/or prototypes.

when It comes to passenger steam.
the train is often unique to the  engine type on the front end.

the DL and GS-4 are VERY photogenic and do well as christmas decorations etc.
so that is going to put those models in front in terms of sales.

next is steam locos and lighted passenger cars

after that you are into sales to model railroaders.
those guys are whiners and complainers and have deep pockets and short arms
yeah sales will be a little slow.

victor

[inkaneer]

I model Pennsy but did not buy the Broadway Limited.  Quite frankly I have more than enough PRR passenger cars and even the Broadway Limited wasn't enough to bring out my wallet.   Now it is true that the cars I have  do not make up a BL consist but I can and have picked up the old Lima, Atlas, Model Power, etc. cars at flea markets for $2.00 each.  That allows me to try to modify them without worrying about screwing up a $250 set.  So I ruin a $2.00 car.  Who cares?  To me the Broadway Limited aroused as much desire as anything painted yellow outside of school buses and canaries.   So why was the BL such a poor seller?   I spoke with a few other Pennsyphiles who also did not buy a set.  I received many reasons why they also did not buy one.   Interestingly I also asked if they would buy a K4 if one was made and how much they were willing to spend on one.  Turns out a K4 would far surpass the BL in sales and people would be willing to pay more for one K4 than the entire BL set.   So go figure.   Now my little survey was far from being considered statistically accurate  but it does indicate that the issue is more complex than "Pennsy does not sell" and to make any correlation to how bad a K4 would not sell based on the BL sales would seem foolhardy.  But then making only Western roads creates a lot of work for custom painters.

[lock4244]

This thread started out as a faux indictment of Kato not producing eastern passenger consists.  It's ridiculous to state that the manufacturers have a bias toward eastern prototypes, because there is overwhelming evidence to refute it.  You can't name one major manufacturer, or one of the smaller manufacturers, that has not released products based on eastern schemes and/or prototypes.

Mfg's have a profit bias, which obliges them to put their money on the pony they believe will cross the line first. Any other bias is purely imagined... except, ironically, ESM - eastern bias!

[bbussey]

I model Pennsy but did not buy the Broadway Limited.  Quite frankly I have more than enough PRR passenger cars and even the Broadway Limited wasn't enough to bring out my wallet.   Now it is true that the cars I have  do not make up a BL consist but I can and have picked up the old Lima, Atlas, Model Power, etc. cars at flea markets for $2.00 each.  That allows me to try to modify them without worrying about screwing up a $250 set.  So I ruin a $2.00 car.  Who cares?  To me the Broadway Limited aroused as much desire as anything painted yellow outside of school buses and canaries.   So why was the BL such a poor seller?   I spoke with a few other Pennsyphiles who also did not buy a set.  I received many reasons why they also did not buy one.   Interestingly I also asked if they would buy a K4 if one was made and how much they were willing to spend on one.  Turns out a K4 would far surpass the BL in sales and people would be willing to pay more for one K4 than the entire BL set.   So go figure.   Now my little survey was far from being considered statistically accurate  but it does indicate that the issue is more complex than "Pennsy does not sell" and to make any correlation to how bad a K4 would not sell based on the BL sales would seem foolhardy.  But then making only Western roads creates a lot of work for custom painters.

Again you're harping on the K4.  It's fairly obvious at this point that, in regard to new tooling, Kato has settled into a niche of offering complete passenger consists.  The motive power is secondary to the consist overall.  They won't even release the BM60M separately in spite of overwhelming demand.  So trying to persuade them to tool an individual steam engine that is specific to one road without a consist attached to it is fruitless at this point, as it doesn't fit within their current business model.  And due to the lack of sales on the Broadway, another Pennsy consist probably won't happen anytime soon.

If you want Kato to consider more Pennsylvania prototypes, then you have to show support for the ones they offer.  Prior to the Broadway being released, there weren't too many higher quality passenger car models that were prototypical to Pennsy.  The California Zephyr modelers got their various additional sets of motive power because Kato is on their sixth release of the consist.   And if the lesser-quality Lima and Model Power cars are acceptable to you, then why isn't the Trix K4?  They can still be found without a lot of effort, and made to perform to current standards for less than what a newly-tooled K4 would cost.

[bbussey]

Mfg's have a profit bias, which obliges them to put their money on the pony they believe will cross the line first. Any other bias is purely imagined... except, ironically, ESM - eastern bias!

True - ESM has bias in favor of eastern prototypes, as clearly stated in the tag line.  But even that will get blurred in the months to come.

[bbussey]

Look at all the incorrect GEVOS that were basically repaints of BNSF or UP units, only reason CP were correct is because the CP modeler were not going to buy them when the picture of the proto were posted...

If you have no issues playing $300+ for a diesel, along with a few thousand of your fellow modelers, you can have any road-specific tooling variation you want.  If you want those same variations with current pricing, it's not going to happen.

 

[wcfn100]

  The California Zephyr modelers got their various additional sets of motive power because Kato is on their sixth release of the consist.   

And there's still more power that can be done! 


Jason

[jnevis]

If you have no issues playing $300+ for a diesel, along with a few thousand of your fellow modelers, you can have any road-specific tooling variation you want.  If you want those same variations with current pricing, it's not going to happen.

Thank you Bryan
While I understand wanting EXACTLY the prototype, sometimes you just have to press the "I believe" button and accept that you are not going to get a perfect example of every variation of every road.  Even a single road has variations between the first unit delivered and the last, even first to next.  If you aren't going to buy a peice since it's not perfect, your roster will be pretty small.  Even the $300 handmade brass stuff has compromises to get close to the proto.  Maybe I'm just not that anal about it.  Gross mistakes will get a grumble, but if a manufacturer is willing to front the money for something close to what I want so be it.  Someobody mentioned that there are somewhere around 12-18 different variations of the GEVO in particular.  You could buy a real GEVO with the money it would cost just in tooling design for that many variations.