Author Topic: Pennsy diesel operations query (Read 6768 times)

sirenwerks · « **on:** July 28, 2011, 06:51:48 PM »

I suppose I could join a Pennsy forum just to ask this, but I'll test my luck here considering all the PRR (and post PRR) fans we have here.

I was flipping through the Morning Sun Delmarva book and noticed something that seemed counter to what I had thought the norm of Pennsy diesel ops in other places - the PRR ran its road units long hood forward, ala N&W. There are a number of photos of RS/RSD units lashed with long hoods point outwards and of pure GP9 lash ups replete with B units, again long hoods pointing outward. All pics of the F and low-hood units show them being operated short hood first.

Was this SOP? I seem to remember the Pennsy running passenger service short hood forward no matter what. Maybe Eastern Shore specific because of the multitude of at-grade crossings?

cv_acr · « **Reply #1 on:** July 28, 2011, 07:19:19 PM »

I think NW was pretty much the only railroad that still ordered long hood forward units by the time the EMD 30 and 40 series rolled along.

It was common for road switchers like GP9s and RS3s to be long hood forward, but engines with low short hoods were clearly designed for that to be the front.

F-units pretty much never would have operated with the cab at the back since there's zero visibility on those things going in reverse.

Things gradually changed on different railroads as well. CN's GP9s used to all be long hood forward. CP gradually changed their standards. H16-44s, RS2s, RS3s and RS10s were all long hood forward; CP's RS18s and GP9s were short hood forward.

So I'm no Pennsy expert, but the F-units definately would have only ever run nose-forward, sounds like PRR's RS3 and GP9 units were LHF, but by the time low-nose diesels were offered, those were all nose-forward. In that way, PRR seems to follow basically everyone else.

Dave V · « **Reply #2 on:** July 28, 2011, 07:21:11 PM »

First generation PRR hoods (GP7s, GP9s, RS11s, RSD15s, etc.) were labeled and operated long hood forward. Second generation and later were primarily short hood forward.

sirenwerks · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2011, 07:36:00 PM »

Quote from: Dave Vollmer on July 28, 2011, 07:21:11 PM

First generation PRR hoods (GP7s, GP9s, RS11s, RSD15s, etc.) were labeled and operated long hood forward. Second generation and later were primarily short hood forward.

Thanks Dave, the photos I have seen of passenger Alco and Baldwin units running short hood forward had me confused and there aren't (m)any photos of PRR GP9s operating that Google provided - just shots of the stationary unit at Horseshoe and units on lease to N&W, and we all know about N&W...

keystonecrossings · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2011, 08:28:13 PM »

Dave is absolutely correct. BTW, the N&W was copying Pennsy practice, not the other way around.

It's ironic that the PRR had a majority/controlling interest in the N&W at one time. The PRR divested, merged with the New York Central, went bankrupt as the Penn Central, was saved through Conrail.

Meanwhile, the N&W gobbled up a few railroads, merged with the Southern, and became Norfolk Southern.

The NS then co-acquired and split Conrail. The offspring eats the parent!

Mark5 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2011, 09:28:46 PM »

PRR never had a majority interest in N&W. :

N&W rarely copied PRR practices.

On the long hood first thing, this was pretty much the default for early hood units - regardless of the road.

Mark
[edited for emphasis]

MichaelWinicki · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2011, 09:53:05 PM »

What Dave V said...

I have a friend who was an engineer on the PRR starting in 1955.

Anyway he has said that many of the 1st gen diesels were run long-hood first.

conrail98 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2011, 09:56:41 PM »

Quote from: Mark5 on July 28, 2011, 09:28:46 PM

PRR never had a majority interest in N&W. : N&W rarely copied PRR practices.

On the long hood first thing, this was pretty much the default for early hood units - regardless of the road.

Mark

Hate to burst your bubble Mark, but the Pennsy did own a majority stake:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40F12FD355D13738DDDA80894DB405B848DF1D3

The result of stock gained originally through the sale of the Shenandoah Valley Railroad,

Phil

Mark5 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2011, 10:41:30 PM »

Quote from: conrail98 on July 28, 2011, 09:56:41 PM

Hate to burst your bubble Mark, but the Pennsy did own a majority stake:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40F12FD355D13738DDDA80894DB405B848DF1D3

The result of stock gained originally through the sale of the Shenandoah Valley Railroad,

Phil

Not sure how PRR gained stock through the sale of the SVRR (unless PRR was holding it), but but in 1890 N&W purchased 100% of the SVRR for $6M in stock (too PRR?). I stand corrected .... for the 19th century.

In the 20th century PRR had closer to 30% of N&W stock. This is not a majority stake.

July 13, 1964 ICC announces decision approving N&W-NKP-Wabash merger; leaves record open for five years during which Erie Lackawanna, Delaware & Hudson, and Boston & Maine can petition for inclusion; gives PRR 90 days to file a divestiture plan to dispose of its 31.3% interest in N&W and 98.9% interest in Wabash within 10 years; PRR must place N&W but not Wabash stock in voting trust and sever all management connections with N&W within 60 days.

http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1964%20June%2004.pdf

Mark

sirenwerks · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2011, 11:01:36 PM »

Quote from: Mark5 on July 28, 2011, 09:28:46 PM

On the long hood first thing, this was pretty much the default for early hood units - regardless of the road.

Mark,

I'm not sure what your source is for this statement. It wasn't common practice on most Midwest or western roads, both B&O and C&O, and many New England roads that I can see. Maybe in the first few years? But the photographic evidence I can see covering most of the Hill roads (GN aside) and Milwaukee Road, all prominent users of 1st gen road units, that I have all show short hood forward. Frisco, Katy, and Wabash too.

conrail98 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2011, 11:04:02 PM »

Yes, in 1882, the N&W and Pennsy agreed to swap common stock of the SVRR for common stock of the N&W. Also, the article I mentioned was from 1914 in which it stated the Pennsy owned 51% of the common stock of the N&W and was daring the attorney general of the US to force them to divest the shares. I can't find a follow-up article to see the results. I would imagine as the N&W expanded its holdings, that share fell to the number you described when the Pennsy had to divest before their failed merger with NYC. It should be noted that in the late 1800s and early 1900s the Pennsy had their toes (and more) in a bunch of railroads in the east,

Phil

conrail98 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2011, 11:16:05 PM »

Actually, just Googling the query.nytimes.com site shows the Pennsy all over the place with the N&W (and other roads). Buying 200,000 shares in 1900 and getting a seat on the N&W board, a turbulent 1906 where they sold, bought, got off the board, the AG article in 1914 that says 51%, then another that states the two are moving to merge in 1916 where the Pennsy owned $53M out of $126M (less than 50% in valuation) of outstanding N&W stock (can't find a follow-up on why it didn't happen). So if I had to guess on Pennsy's influence on the N&W I would say it's probably strong but maybe not quite "running the show" the original statement made,

Phil

Bob Bufkin · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2011, 11:45:11 PM »

You all almost got it right on the PRR early units. There was one first gen diesel, don't remember which model but it was an Alco, which was run short hood first on the PRR. Jerry, you got the answer for this? Believe they were originally used as Horseshoe Curve helpers.

It was up to the railroads to decide which way to run early hood units. Honestly believe the conservative PRR wanted long hood first because that was the way steam engines ran.

Mark5 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 29, 2011, 12:10:16 AM »

Quote from: sirenwerks on July 28, 2011, 11:01:36 PM

Mark,

I'm not sure what your source is for this statement. It wasn't common practice on most Midwest or western roads, both B&O and C&O, and many New England roads that I can see. Maybe in the first few years? But the photographic evidence I can see covering most of the Hill roads (GN aside) and Milwaukee Road, all prominent users of 1st gen road units, that I have all show short hood forward. Frisco, Katy, and Wabash too.

Mark

Mark5 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 29, 2011, 12:15:09 AM »

Quote from: conrail98 on July 28, 2011, 11:16:05 PM

Actually, just Googling the query.nytimes.com site shows the Pennsy all over the place with the N&W (and other roads). Buying 200,000 shares in 1900 and getting a seat on the N&W board, a turbulent 1906 where they sold, bought, got off the board, the AG article in 1914 that says 51%, then another that states the two are moving to merge in 1916 where the Pennsy owned $53M out of $126M (less than 50% in valuation) of outstanding N&W stock (can't find a follow-up on why it didn't happen). So if I had to guess on Pennsy's influence on the N&W I would say it's probably strong but maybe not quite "running the show" the original statement made,

Phil

Yeah, thats right, you cannot control a company with less than 51%. Having worked in corporations most of my career (parent companies and subsidiaries) I know you can influence with 30% (ie get a few peeps on the board) but not enough to control.

N&W did as it pleased for the bulk of the 20th century.

Mark

Author Topic: Pennsy diesel operations query (Read 6768 times)

sirenwerks

Pennsy diesel operations query

cv_acr

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

Dave V

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

sirenwerks

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

keystonecrossings

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

Mark5

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

MichaelWinicki

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

conrail98

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

Mark5

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

sirenwerks

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

conrail98

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

conrail98

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

Bob Bufkin

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

Mark5

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query

Mark5

Re: Pennsy diesel operations query