Pennsy diesel operations query

[sirenwerks]

Mark,

You've shown me mostly pics of units parked on a lead, not in use, sitting still. What proof again have you shown? I could go down to the NS yard and snap a pick of a SD70 facing the long hood and that would prove they run long hood forward? Be real.

I knew NYC ran long hood (and hence didn't mention it) and I even singled GN out as being the sole Hill line that ran long hood forward. The B&O unit is last in a lash-up and it would never set a lash-up to run elephant style intentionally, too much effort. The SP unit's switching. The UP info, good find. But you've not made a case for long hood first being dominant, or default as you put it. Commonplace maybe, but not dominant.

I have been rummaging my library of Morning Sickness books and long hood forward's not showing up often in the pics. I can even add ATSF, SP, WP, Soo, MSt&L, and C&NW to the list of running (that means pulling an actual train), get this, (with lead unit) short hood forward. I've seen the picks of trains in motion, and it's short hood by a nose.

[Mark5]

I am unable to produce 1950s videos for the court. 

I'm gonna assume you know what that little "F" on the frame means.

SD70s do not have an "F" on the long hood side.

Mark

[wcfn100]

I have been rummaging my library of Morning Sickness books and long hood forward's not showing up often in the pics. I can even add ATSF, SP, WP, Soo, MSt&L, and C&NW to the list of running (that means pulling an actual train), get this, (with lead unit) short hood forward. I've seen the picks of trains in motion, and it's short hood by a nose.

I can say without a doubt that M&St.L units were long hood forward.  If you can't tell from the M&St.L Morning Sun book, then you're seeing what you want to see.  There are only two shots in the whole book of an RS-1 with cars with the long hood forward.  One is switching, the other is pulling mine duty.  Of course this is all on top of 'F' on the sil denoting the front of the engine and the steam bell that was mounted on the long hood.


Jason


Jason

[inkaneer]

FWIW.  As I understand it, In the beginning, God created ...  Oh, wrong forum.   But all seriousness aside, my understanding was that in the beginning of the diesel age, railroads could chose whether they wanted single or dual control stands in their locomotives.  Those that opted for the single stand received locomotives with the control stand oriented for running long hood forward.  Whether that was some form of carry over from steam engine operation I am not sure. I would imagine that there would have been some input from engine crew members about the improved safety of running long hood forward and recall reading somewhere that this was one of the determining factors in the N&W's decision to run long hood forward and also related to their practice of ordering engines with the full height short hoods.  N&W did not get short hoods until about  1964 (?) or so.  I believe some of the first N&W engines with short hoods were GP35's that N&W acquired with the takeover of the P&WV.  These engines were ordered by the P&WV before the takeover but delivered after.

[David Leonard]

Yes, the little "F" on the frame indicates which end is set up to be the front. That means the right side of a forward facing locomotive has an engineer's control stand. This doesn't mean they always operated front end first. That's one of the advantages of hood units. There are going to be exceptions to almost everything. Nevertheless, in general both N&W and PRR designated and operated ist gen hood units long hood front. N&W continued to designate the long hood as front into the era of second generation diesels. SR the same way. Up until the late 80's NS usually operated even lo-nose six-axle power long end first. This drove me nuts, since I never liked the looks of it. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nw/nw6122ags.jpg

[Mark5]

N&W did not get short hoods until about  1964 (?) or so.  I believe some of the first N&W engines with short hoods were GP35's that N&W acquired with the takeover of the P&WV.  These engines were ordered by the P&WV before the takeover but delivered after.

N&W did not purchase any low nose units until 1974. They did inherit some Wabash and NKP (low nose units), as well as a few P&WV GP35s ordered before the merger - which were delivered after the merger. N&W order their diesels with dual controls so they could be operated in either direction. In the mid 70s N&W started ordering units with "bi-directional" control stands.

Mark

[sirenwerks]

I can say without a doubt that M&St.L units were long hood forward.  If you can't tell from the M&St.L Morning Sun book, then you're seeing what you want to see.  There are only two shots in the whole book of an RS-1 with cars with the long hood forward.  One is switching, the other is pulling mine duty.  Of course this is all on top of 'F' on the sil denoting the front of the engine and the steam bell that was mounted on the long hood.

Jason,

You're right about the RS units. I was recollecting the Louie's Geeps, all of which are SHORT hood forward in the book, so no, I am not seeing what I want per se. As David pointed out , the F plate is not an indicator of the predisposition of how the units were operated. So it looks like we're at a stale mate.

[Mark5]

Well, ask some engineers if they like operating a diesel with single control stands in the opposite direction of "F" ...

Mark

[cv_acr]

As David pointed out , the F plate is not an indicator of the predisposition of how the units were operated. So it looks like we're at a stale mate.

Why are we at a stalemate? The F indicates which end is designed as the front, and which way the controls in the cab are set up. Sure, they can still be run any way you want, but the long end is still the front on those railroads pictured. Some railroads ordered engines with the long hood as front, and the links Mark provided show engines lettered and set up that way. So sure they could run the other way too, but they are delivered set up for long hood forward.

Other railways specifically ordered units with the short hood as front; it was an option. My road, the Algoma Central, ordered their GP7s with the short hood forward. CN's GP7s and GP9s were long hood forward. When 4 of the AC's GP7s were rebuilt by CN, CN's paint shop incorrectly marked the long hood end as the front, since that's what they were used to for their own units.

And things changed between different type of units. I mentioned before that Canadian Pacific was long hood forward with their RS-2s, RS-3s, RS-10s, etc; but their GP7s, GP9s, and RS-18s were all short hood forward. I know absolutely nothing about MSTL locomotives, but the posts above seem to indicate that RS-1s were LHF, and GP9s SHF?

[inkaneer]

Why are we at a stalemate? The F indicates which end is designed as the front, and which way the controls in the cab are set up. Sure, they can still be run any way you want, but the long end is still the front on those railroads pictured. Some railroads ordered engines with the long hood as front, and the links Mark provided show engines lettered and set up that way. So sure they could run the other way too, but they are delivered set up for long hood forward.

Actually the placement of the F was more or less arbitrary as it was a FRA directive that one end of a engine be so designated.  If you ask why this designation was necessary then I guess the answer that the government said so is as good as any.  In other words, I don't know.  Anyway there was nothing magical about which end the F was placed.  Placement of the F on the locomotive was in accord with the way the control stand was oriented and since most single control stand locomotives were set up to run long hood forward guess where the F went?   

[sirenwerks]

Why are we at a stalemate? The F indicates which end is designed as the front, and which way the controls in the cab are set up.

??? So units with dual controls had two fronts? That is what you are implying.

As I stated, my disposition comes from photographic evidence of trains in motion, not locos sitting still, being serviced or whatever. Read my lips, "In motion."

Maybe they were designed to run LHF, but I'm not asking about design. I am asking about actual operation. Not parked, moving on a mainline, going, scooting, rushing, speeding, can I make it any clearer? Sheesh. (Where's that Batman icon when I need it?)

[Ed Kapuscinski]

If you ask why this designation was necessary then I guess the answer that the government said so is as good as any.

It's an important safety feature, some of the type that were never voluntarily implemented (like air brakes, knuckle couplers, standardized safety equipment: grab irons, stirrups, etc...).

Part of being safe is being aware of what's going on around you. You need to designate which end of a unit is forward for things like whistle signals (two shorts forward, three shorts reverse). The "F" gives you that. Remember, all locomotives are bi-directional, even if, by tradition, one end is forward. The F placement (and all that other mandated stuff that might seem like unnecessary government interference in private industry) is required because equipment is interchangeable, so that a guy on the PRR, if he pays attention to the common required labeling, isn't going to get killed because they're borrowing a unit from the UP.

Who knows how many digits, appendages, and even lives have been saved because of this one, simple "obvious" thing.

[wcfn100]

Why are we at a stalemate? The F indicates which end is designed as the front, and which way the controls in the cab are set up. Sure, they can still be run any way you want, but the long end is still the front on those railroads pictured.

Well, like most railroad related questions, there are situations that don't follow the 'rules'.  In this case, CGW TR-2 sets were lettered with the 'F' on both long hoods pointing out.  So where's the front?  In this case you can look at the all weather window which shows where the engineer was.


In the case of the M&St.L, there is no stalemate.  The RS units were long hood forward, the GPs were short hood forward.    But you can only really compare the GP9m units to what other railroads were doing by 1956.  The M&St.L didn't transition through a bunch of other models from various manufacturers like the bigger railroads did, so there wasn't any carryover of the long hood forward operation.

Jason

[Bob Bufkin]

To get back to the original question.  The Alco RSD-7 and RSD15 were the only first generation units set up to run short hood forward on the PRR.  I have seen photos of these units running long hood forward nevertheless.

[sirenwerks]

The TR2 reference is immediately disqualified from the conversation, which referred to the colloquial road unit, not switchers or transfer units. If we include the latter we might as well just throw a Baldwin DT6-6-2000 into the argument and it all becomes moot. Now back to the regularly scheduled mayhem...