Author Topic: Atlas Jan Announcements  (Read 12019 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bbussey

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8754
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +4135
    • www.bbussey.net
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2011, 09:25:16 AM »
0
What you say has some merit but, we can't forget  we haven't seen a new Atlas  N Scale locomotive since the GP15-1 but,we have seen several new locomotives and cars in HO and in my mind that seems to rule out the "bad economy" excuse...I'll mention the new O Scale models as well released since the GP15-1.

I won't help support Atlas HO/O Scale projects by paying higher  N Scale costs while we get nothing new in return as far as new locomotives and cars.

Atlas has released other new N scale products since the GP15.  The company supports three scales.  HO is the primary market.  There still are multiple paint schemes being released regularly on existing various N scale locomotive models.  So in your mind a "bad economy" means the company has to stop releasing product across the board in all scales, rather than making adjustments here and there in the release schedule?  To say the company is having problems simply because no newly-tooled N scale locomotive was introduced in 2010, when numerous other new products have been released in N and the other scales, is misrepresenting the facts. 

Four new Atlas N scale products from last year 2010 off the top of my head - the Magor caboose, the 1932 ARA Boxcar in multiple variations, the truss bridge, and curved c55 turnouts.  The first new N scale product this year - new variations on the 1932 ARA Boxcar, due before the month is out.  The company offers more locomotive models in N than it does in HO and O combined.  Where is the slowdown?
 
I been on the Atlas forum since 2001 and I know there is more lock topics now then ever before and we can't overlook the fact Atlas shut their forums down twice due to the "brawls" that was very common on those forums..

It is not a public forum, you register for the privilege to participate.  The rules are stated clearly.  Atlas has the right to regulate its own forum as it sees fit.  Whether or not they choose to administer a more strict interpretation of their own rules at times is their prerogative (most likely, it is the periodic change in the personnel monitoring the forum and what they judge to be allowed within the rules).  And I don't believe there is another model railroad manufacturer that maintains forum boards and allows postings and discussions of products not pertaining to that manufacturer.  Because of the exposure that their forum provides, I appreciate that it is not restricted to Atlas product discussion only.  I have absolutely no complaints on how they run their forum, and I easily can post within their guidelines.
Bryan Busséy
NHRHTA #2246
NSE #1117
www.bbussey.net


SkipGear

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 2418
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +629
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2011, 10:02:00 AM »
0
Obviously?    InterMountain and Fox Valley 6 axle locos have MRSPs that are $30 less.  The Kato Gevos made in Japan are
priced at about $50 less.  What is so obvious that we are not seeing?

It's due to the economy of scale (numbers not size). Kato sells primarily to Japan who buys 3-4 times the loco's we do from what I understand. This means production runs are 3-4 times larger for the Kato loco's, maybe even more considering all the leftover product that Kato is sitting on compared to Atlas, Athearn and FVM.

Larger production runs yeild to lower prices. In round numbers, say it costs $10,000 to set up the machines and $5000 per paint scheme to run a particular loco. If you run 10,000 of units of one scheme that equates to $1.50 per loco pays for that setup cost. If you run 1000 units, then you are looking at $15 per loco to pay for setup. Two schemes and that price doesn't get cut in half but it does come down. Say the total production is 10,000 units in 10 schemes then the cost works out to $6 per loco for setup.

Now in real numbers, Atlas has admited some production runs have been as few as 200 units for a particular paint scheme. Even using the large run of multiple schemes model, setup costs spread over the small run would be (using the example above) over $25 per unit.

Kato runs large production runs of just a couple paint schemes at a time, this is where their savings come in. They have a larger audience to sell to so they can afford to do this. I'm sure Atlas sells loco's over seas but not in the number Kato does. If you take the quantities above and cut them just in half, you see how the cost rises. Setup charges are a fixed cost and don't go down just because you are not making as many of one scheme over the other.

You may say, "Well I'm buying CSX which should be a lot stonger seller, it should be cheaper." Atlas doesn't work that way, they average the cost between models so that everybody pays the same. That is the only way Atlas can run the oddball stuff that they do. The high volume movers help offset the cost of the unique. Even at that, it looks like the "special edition" versions are going to start bearing some of their own burden as they as slightly more expensive now for one off paint schemes.

I know these are not real numbers, they may be higher but they are probably lower so don't debate the actual dollar values please.

Tony Hines

mcjaco

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1703
  • Respect: +105
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2011, 10:11:00 AM »
0
What you say has some merit but, we can't forget  we haven't seen a new Atlas  N Scale locomotive since the GP15-1 but,we have seen several new locomotives and cars in HO and in my mind that seems to rule out the "bad economy" excuse...I'll mention the new O Scale models as well released since the GP15-1.

Have you taken a look at the HO offerings over the past year?  I'd say offerings across both scales have been pretty even.
~ Matt

Brakie

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 637
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +4
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2011, 10:12:43 AM »
0
Bryan,The Magor caboose dates back to 2008.The '09/10 runs doesn't count as a new model no more then any other rerun including the the 1932 ARA Boxcar goes back to '08 as well..

I realize you are defending your friends at Atlas and I can appreciate that.However,the cold facts speaks for themselves Atlas has not release any new locomotive or car in  N Scale since the GP15-1 back in 2008..

The reason I do not count reruns is all 3 scales gets reruns on a monthly bases..

I can also appreciate Atlas  putting their tooling money into  HO and  O Scale since those are the larger of the three markets.However,a new  N Scale locomotive or car once a year would be nice.

To be fair I will include Athearn and Walthers with their lack of  new N Scale models least I be accused of Atlas bashing.


As far as the Atlas forum..All forums are privately owned but open to the public and just like any other you need to resister to become a member and follow their rules...

Going back to the "brawling" years of the Atlas forum there was little moderation.The moderation came after the last shut down and the forum has improved 100% since then except for a few ego and brand bashing problems that results in a locked topic..



Larry

Summerset Ry.

MichaelWinicki

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 2093
  • Respect: +328
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2011, 10:13:12 AM »
0
It's due to the economy of scale (numbers not size). Kato sells primarily to Japan who buys 3-4 times the loco's we do from what I understand. This means production runs are 3-4 times larger for the Kato loco's, maybe even more considering all the leftover product that Kato is sitting on compared to Atlas, Athearn and FVM.

Larger production runs yeild to lower prices. In round numbers, say it costs $10,000 to set up the machines and $5000 per paint scheme to run a particular loco. If you run 10,000 of units of one scheme that equates to $1.50 per loco pays for that setup cost. If you run 1000 units, then you are looking at $15 per loco to pay for setup. Two schemes and that price doesn't get cut in half but it does come down. Say the total production is 10,000 units in 10 schemes then the cost works out to $6 per loco for setup.

Now in real numbers, Atlas has admited some production runs have been as few as 200 units for a particular paint scheme. Even using the large run of multiple schemes model, setup costs spread over the small run would be (using the example above) over $25 per unit.

Kato runs large production runs of just a couple paint schemes at a time, this is where their savings come in. They have a larger audience to sell to so they can afford to do this. I'm sure Atlas sells loco's over seas but not in the number Kato does. If you take the quantities above and cut them just in half, you see how the cost rises. Setup charges are a fixed cost and don't go down just because you are not making as many of one scheme over the other.

You may say, "Well I'm buying CSX which should be a lot stonger seller, it should be cheaper." Atlas doesn't work that way, they average the cost between models so that everybody pays the same. That is the only way Atlas can run the oddball stuff that they do. The high volume movers help offset the cost of the unique. Even at that, it looks like the "special edition" versions are going to start bearing some of their own burden as they as slightly more expensive now for one off paint schemes.

I know these are not real numbers, they may be higher but they are probably lower so don't debate the actual dollar values please.



That's a pretty good explanation SG.

Brakie

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 637
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +4
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2011, 10:20:07 AM »
0
Have you taken a look at the HO offerings over the past year?  I'd say offerings across both scales have been pretty even.

Absolutely..Its a landslide with several new HO products.
Larry

Summerset Ry.

SkipGear

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 2418
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +629
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2011, 10:27:35 AM »
0
I can see why Atlas is pursuing the O-scale market.  Atlas (Lionel and MTH are in the same boat) is making all the money on O scale on their side, the shops don't see much of it. I can't image that the O scale stuff costs 5 times more to make than HO or N scale product.

What I can't figure out is why O scale costs so much more and our margins at the shop are so much smaller than other scales. I hate to carry O just for the fact that we make no money on it. It is pointless to stock. I can sell an Atlas O master line loco for $600 at full retail or sell one of the new N scale Dash 8C's at a discount and make the same amount of money. Not percentage mind you but actual dollar value profit.

OH, well, that's a topic for another forum. Just wanted to get that one off my chest.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 10:29:53 AM by SkipGear »
Tony Hines

lock4244

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 4201
  • Respect: +576
    • My train pics
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2011, 10:33:15 AM »
0
Just out of curiosity,

How many of you guys would purchase a locomotive with DCC and $150.00 price tag if it was made in the United States?

J,,,

For a GP40-2L, yes, yes, yes... and I'd be in for 15-18 of them. Any other model on a case by case basis.

John

  • Administrator
  • Crew
  • *****
  • Posts: 13143
  • Respect: +2875
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2011, 10:51:08 AM »
0
The takeaway for me is that the little cho-choo's are getting too expensive .. I am becoming more selective in what I buy, and when I buy it. I no longer pre-order, and generally don't buy much from dealers anymore. Of course, there is little I need beyond scenery stuff .. I have about 60 locos, and over 300 cars, that fill my small layout just fine.  It is a matter of economics for many, myself included.

inkaneer

  • Guest
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2011, 11:46:19 AM »
0
Well I don't like doomsayers but I have a feeling these price increases are going to be very hard to swallow for a lot of people.   If I were one of the boys at Atlas I would be consulting with experts about moving new production to another location.   We have already priced the kids out of the hobby and now we are working on doing the same to the adults.  Soon we will be asking whatever happened to model railroading? 

Brakie

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 637
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +4
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2011, 12:21:18 PM »
0
Well I don't like doomsayers but I have a feeling these price increases are going to be very hard to swallow for a lot of people.   If I were one of the boys at Atlas I would be consulting with experts about moving new production to another location.   We have already priced the kids out of the hobby and now we are working on doing the same to the adults.  Soon we will be asking whatever happened to model railroading? 

I agree but,like I said once on the Atlas HO forum all this limited run crap amounts to is a way to jack up the prices..Time to vote with the wallet.Of course I was flamed. :(   

Here's the thing to look for in the future..The price bubble will burst or the manufacturers will price their selves out of business..Its that simple.



Larry

Summerset Ry.

bbussey

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8754
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +4135
    • www.bbussey.net
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2011, 01:10:16 PM »
0
Bryan,The Magor caboose dates back to 2008.The '09/10 runs doesn't count as a new model no more then any other rerun including the the 1932 ARA Boxcar goes back to '08 as well..

I realize you are defending your friends at Atlas and I can appreciate that.However,the cold facts speaks for themselves Atlas has not release any new locomotive or car in  N Scale since the GP15-1 back in 2008..

The reason I do not count reruns is all 3 scales gets reruns on a monthly bases..

I can also appreciate Atlas  putting their tooling money into  HO and  O Scale since those are the larger of the three markets.However,a new  N Scale locomotive or car once a year would be nice.

To be fair I will include Athearn and Walthers with their lack of  new N Scale models least I be accused of Atlas bashing.

As far as the Atlas forum..All forums are privately owned but open to the public and just like any other you need to resister to become a member and follow their rules...

Going back to the "brawling" years of the Atlas forum there was little moderation.The moderation came after the last shut down and the forum has improved 100% since then except for a few ego and brand bashing problems that results in a locked topic..

Larry,

I don't mind debating this issue with you, but you're not entitled to ignore the facts that don't fit within your argument.  Aside from the Magor caboose, weren't the other items I mentioned introduced in 2010?  Tooling variations to an existing model still count as a new model in my opinion.  It's still fresh money being invested in new tooling to produce a model that isn't on the market.  Every announced release of the 1932 ARA car has featured new tooling, including the batch that is imminent.

My "friendship" aside, I'm correcting presumptions that you are putting forth as facts.  Atlas on average releases the most N scale locomotive models/schemes annually, that is a fact.  They release the most diverse and obscure schemes.  Why are you holding them (and belatedly Athearn and Walthers) to a higher standard than other locomotive manufacturers?  Why not chastise Kato for having a limited annual release schedule?  Yes a newly-tooled locomotive a year would be nice, but not too many people have an extra $100G to spend annually that they won't recoup the investment on for a few years.  And while you may not count "reruns," they don't cost "nothing" to produce and the proceeds go toward the amortization of the original tooling that you want them to invest in annually.

Regarding the price, Tony stated it quite well.  There isn't much more that can be said to convince people.  If people can justify the price increase personally, they will buy the models.  Either way, it won't be the "end of Atlas" or of the industry should the market be soft for these models.  This has been happening periodically for the last 30 years, since the Atlas/Kato RS-3 planted the foundation for the current era, and everyone is still standing.

As far as the Atlas forum is concerned - based on your comments above it appears that you are pleased that the boards now have "more moderation" for lack of a better term, so I don't understand why you are having a problem with the current format.  If you have an issue with how they run their boards, you should take it up with them directly.  You'll have the opportunity in Springfield if you desire.
Bryan Busséy
NHRHTA #2246
NSE #1117
www.bbussey.net


bbussey

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8754
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +4135
    • www.bbussey.net
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2011, 01:16:00 PM »
0
Well I don't like doomsayers but I have a feeling these price increases are going to be very hard to swallow for a lot of people.   If I were one of the boys at Atlas I would be consulting with experts about moving new production to another location.   We have already priced the kids out of the hobby and now we are working on doing the same to the adults.  Soon we will be asking whatever happened to model railroading? 

Again, this is all cyclical.  When it got too expensive for Atlas to have product manufactured in Japan, they found an alternative.  The kids are not being priced out, as there many less expensive avenues remain available (Atlas Trainman, Bachmann, etcetera).  The sole issue here is that specific models/schemes that people want are being priced higher than what they expected.  And while that is disappointing (due to circumstance, not greed), the current increases will not bring the hobby tumbling down. 
Bryan Busséy
NHRHTA #2246
NSE #1117
www.bbussey.net


mcjaco

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1703
  • Respect: +105
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2011, 01:26:42 PM »
0
It doesn't matter anyway.  The world ends in 2012.
~ Matt

Brakie

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 637
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +4
Re: Atlas Jan Announcements
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2011, 01:40:55 PM »
0
Bryan,I don't think we will get anywhere with this back and forth because the facts are there-no new engines or cars since the GP15-1 in '08 and I don't count rehashes of older locomotives or cars that's been around 3 or more years like you do..The matter is closed as far as I am concerned since the facts can be found looking at the HO and  N Scale "new model" releases on the Atlas web page starting with '08.They speak volumes.

I don't believe I ever said I had any problems with the Atlas forum nor have I said Atlas could be in financial trouble.. ???

Larry

Summerset Ry.