Bachmann 4-6-0

[Mr. G]

What about the Bachmann tenders?  I would think those would be more available than the MP ones. 

[Dave V]

I'm not sure I buy that excuse...  For crap's sake they fit weight, motor, AND decoder in the 44T.  Tell me they can't fit one single decoder in a smaller tender?

[SkipGear]

Dave,
 The decoder in the 44T is bigger than the one that is used in their steam releases. It is longer and length is the problem. The lightboard in the short tender takes up too much room. They could have re-desiged a lightboard/decoder to replace the board that is in there now and made room (which is what they should have done), but they are using the existing tooling/light boards and soldering in a decoder.

[Chris333]

For me the MP 4-4-0 tender will be prefect...well except for the trucks  :

[Dave V]

Tony,

What am I missing?  I "get it" that Bachmann builds their own decoders, but unless they're using vacuum tubes, why must they be so big?  I installed a TCS M1 in the smokebox of their 2-8-0, and I know they make even smaller decoders.  Heck, a DZ125 is still plenty small enough to fit in a much smaller tender.

I would much rather have a proper tender and then have to do the decoder install myself than to have this monster.

[SkipGear]

Dave,
 It's really all about money...they do all work in house and don't out-source anything. Yes; Digitrax, Lenz, NCE, TCS, can all make a smaller decoder (or at least have sources to farm out the manufacturing of such) but Bachmann currently can't and they won't pay somebody else to do it for them. They have made a comitment that future releases will have DCC installed and this loco was a casualty of that decision.  It was mentioned that they are looking into new equipment that will allow them to make smaller decoders, but it will cost in the range of $500,000 and just isn't in the books right now. That lightboard in the picture above is about as tightly spaced as their equipment can handle. Look at a DZ125 with the shrink wrap off, the connections and traces are an order of magnitude smaller than that light board.

 Remember their excuse as to why the 4-6-0 and 2-10-0 could not have been done before...they didn't "MAKE" a motor small enough. It wasn't that they couldn't buy a motor small enough, they couldn't make one in house. The 4-6-0 may be the solution to the motor problem.

 I would love for a smaller tender to be on the loco and I think in the future there will be a version with a more appropriate tender and smaller drivers but for now, this is what we have to work with and I am happy.

  BTW - Much of this is estimated guessing. I understand how the industry works and have friends in the machine tool industry so I know what it takes to create the various elements. The biggest thing is people really over estimate the margins and the money being made. My guess they wanted the loco to match a retail price point. Creating a whole new decoder specifically for this loco would have exceeded that number so usiing existing tooling was the cheaper way to go and got the product to market faster. Faster Return on Investment, more money to spend on the next project.

  After dealing with the "average joe" for 10 hours straight yesterday at the hobbyshop, 90% of the people won't know the difference or care about the tender, 5% will care and balk, the other 5% will care and fix it themself. If Bachmann can make another 5-10% profit on the loco by using an existing decoder, and only loose 5% of market share, by the books, it was the correct decision.

[FrankCampagna]

Bachmann seems to be going for price point. Their locomotives run well, but lack a lot of frills and detail of other manufacturers. But they are cheaper. Since many people are not as well off as they used to be, this could a big factor in the future. Especially if prices keep increasing. Detail freaks need not buy them, and I don't think Bachmann is too worried about that at this point. Their GP-7's are about $12 cheaper than the incoming Atlas GP-7. Significant for some people. Beside, who else went out of their way to make a 4-6-0 in N scale. Honestly, I think if some model railroaders were starving, and someone handed them a biscuit, they'd say: "No thanks, I'd rather have something lowfat and whole grain." Some of us would eat the biscuit, and thank the person who gave it to us.

Frank

[MichaelWinicki]

  BTW - Much of this is estimated guessing. I understand how the industry works and have friends in the machine tool industry so I know what it takes to create the various elements. The biggest thing is people really over estimate the margins and the money being made. My guess they wanted the loco to match a retail price point. Creating a whole new decoder specifically for this loco would have exceeded that number so usiing existing tooling was the cheaper way to go and got the product to market faster. Faster Return on Investment, more money to spend on the next project.

  After dealing with the "average joe" for 10 hours straight yesterday at the hobbyshop, 90% of the people won't know the difference or care about the tender, 5% will care and balk, the other 5% will care and fix it themself. If Bachmann can make another 5-10% profit on the loco by using an existing decoder, and only loose 5% of market share, by the books, it was the correct decision.

I think you nailed it.

There's "good" and there's "good enough"... And that's not a knock on Bachmann.  They're hitting a price point.

My gosh a steam loco WITH decoder for a $150 list, but a street price of what $100-$120.  That's very good.

[MichaelWinicki]

Bachmann seems to be going for price point. Their locomotives run well, but lack a lot of frills and detail of other manufacturers. But they are cheaper. Since many people are not as well off as they used to be, this could a big factor in the future. Especially if prices keep increasing. Detail freaks need not buy them, and I don't think Bachmann is too worried about that at this point. Their GP-7's are about $12 cheaper than the incoming Atlas GP-7. Significant for some people. Beside, who else went out of their way to make a 4-6-0 in N scale. Honestly, I think if some model railroaders were starving, and someone handed them a biscuit, they'd say: "No thanks, I'd rather have something lowfat and whole grain." Some of us would eat the biscuit, and thank the person who gave it to us.

Frank

Good point about the Bachmann GP7 being about $12 less expensive– And that's with a decoder.  Think about that.

[Dave V]

Even with the correct tender, I'm probably not in the market for this.  Sure, I have an interest in the Maryland & Pennsylvania RR, but their equipment didn't wander out onto the Pennsy Middle Division very often as far as I can tell.  It would be a neat locomotive to have, though, and if I suddenly fall in to a lot of extra cash and can get through my higher priority purchase list, I would consider this.

I'm not averse to kitbashing steam as some of you know...  I guess I'm just frustrated that Bachmann went this route when I know they're capable of better.  Several times now economics has stopped them from "kicking it up a notch," when other companies might have gone that extra mile.  I would certainly kitbash a tender if I purchased this engine.

The chassis is not suitable for a PRR G5 kitbash; driver size, spacing, cylinders versus steam chests, valve gear, etc...  But might work for a much earlier class of PRR engine.

Frank, I think I roll both ways...  Sometimes I am thankful for any table scrap and other times I say no, I'd rather starve.  It has much to do with what my prioritized needs are, and whether I'm in the mood to perform major surgery.  It also depends on how egregious the error is.  I have plenty of foobies on the Juniata Division, but something like this would cross the line whereby I couldn't use it as-is.  If I were modeling the MA&PA, I'd snatch it up in a heatbeat and prep it for surgery.

Glad to see Bachmann releasing small steam.  Just sad about the economics of the tender decision.

I am, however, more interested in their GP7.  Could always use more PRR hoods, but am more interested in a beat-up Penn Central one for local service in my early Conrail era.

[wes_sutton]

Honestly, I think if some model railroaders were starving, and someone handed them a biscuit, they'd say: "No thanks, I'd rather have something lowfat and whole grain." Some of us would eat the biscuit, and thank the person who gave it to us.

Frank

;D ;D

[up1950s]

from: FrankCampagna on Today at 11:31:07 AM
Bachmann seems to be going for price point. Their locomotives run well, but lack a lot of frills and detail of other manufacturers. But they are cheaper. Since many people are not as well off as they used to be, this could a big factor in the future. Especially if prices keep increasing. Detail freaks need not buy them, and I don't think Bachmann is too worried about that at this point. Their GP-7's are about $12 cheaper than the incoming Atlas GP-7. Significant for some people. Beside, who else went out of their way to make a 4-6-0 in N scale. Honestly, I think if some model railroaders were starving, and someone handed them a biscuit, they'd say: "No thanks, I'd rather have something lowfat and whole grain." Some of us would eat the biscuit, and thank the person who gave it to us.

I would have liked it better if I could have purchased 2 Bachmann 2-6-0's with DC biscuits instead of DCC tenders .  :

[Puddington]

Beside, who else went out of their way to make a 4-6-0 in N scale. Honestly, I think if some model railroaders were starving, and someone handed them a biscuit, they'd say: "No thanks, I'd rather have something lowfat and whole grain." Some of us would eat the biscuit, and thank the person who gave it to us.

Frank

Ok; so I've been beating my head for years trying to find the right way to say this and ol' Frank comes out and puts it perfectly....I'm stealing this Frank, using it often and will thank you each and every time........."biscuit... I think not; I'm holding out for a (tummy rumble) filet minon........now move along..........."

[Dave V]

I don't know if I can get behind that sentiment.  Being thankful for anything regardless of fidelity to prototype, or worse yet, quality...  That's the sort of thought process that led Walthers to present us with the same warmed over caboose tooling at five times the price.  We should buy it and be thankful without question?

Granted N scale steam is a different animal in that there are so few quality options to choose from.  However, I still think there's value in holding a manufacturer to a standard of correctness.  It's not the 1980s or 90s anymore.  We've seen some amazing things in N scale these past few years and the gauntlet has been thrown down.  I don't think it's douchebaggery to expect that Bachmann, who brought us an amazing GE44T that defies physics and reason in its pulling power and detail for its price, could have done a better job here on this tender.

I do not mind being the single voice advocating the position that Bachmann punted on this tender.  I think we as a community sometimes do need to break away from the starving dog mentality and realize that with technology what it is, we have the same rights that HO scalers do to fidelity to prototype.  Otherwise we should be happy with our Aurora Postage Stamp train sets and brass track. ;D

But then again, we can always agree to disagree on this point...

[asarge]

Tony has it right 90% of the potential market doesn;t care or it doesn't matter to them. There are afew who have been waiting for a 10-wheeler and because the tender isn't exactly how they think it should be, they are crazy enough to pass it up. We 4 or 5 pre-ordered at the shop and all but one have seen the tender and pretty much shrugged it off.

As foir the decoder, Bachmann told me the reson they added the DCC component as the chip maker did not change the price to add DCC, so they added it in. So if it doesn't cost extra why would they not go with a DCC option on the circuitboard.

Bachman has made some changes. They know customers are balking at the hefty prices som of the other manufacturers are charging and they believe a sizeable prtion of modellers in N and HO want a lower price and are willing to sacrifice some detail for a reliable loco. Haviung seen the HO GP7's I'm actually looking forward to seeing how the new N scale loco's  look and perform. I have been pleasantly surpised with the 44 tonner and the heavy mountain before that. So this should be interesting. Bachmann does have the potential to be a game changer in the market.