Author Topic: Progress on The Shelf  (Read 10392 times)

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John

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2010, 05:19:52 PM »
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whats in the access hatch you are blocking? ???

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2010, 05:32:06 PM »
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The gas meter, which can be remotely read. Also, the whole thing slides off the shelfs with the removal of just a few pins, so hopefully it shouldn't be a problem.

davefoxx

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2010, 06:32:56 PM »
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Yep, not that I plan on needing it much (since most construction can be done with the panels removed). And the signature image is the one below this text, in my sig. I like the "white sky" effect.

Tom, the doors are still here, and will be worked on shortly, but this is a much quicker project to get running. Don't be hurt, I just went for the quick and cheap method. As far as a fascia goes, I'll probably go with flashing or something like that liquid nailed to the front of the styrofoam. Why overbuild?

The "white sky" effect is appropriate. Looking straight up, you see less haze or pollution, so the sky is bluer.  But, near the horizon, where you are looking through more haze or pollution, the sky appears much lighter and sometimes almost white.

I'm curious as to how you will support the fascia, unless it will only be as thick as the foam.  Also, I have a lot of concern for the unsupported foam sagging, not only because of the distance between shelf supports, but the depth in the corners.  It could be the picture, but is that corner on the left sagging already?

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Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2010, 06:58:06 PM »
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The corner is a bit, but mostly because it dried that way... the foam is supported every 2', at minimum, so I'm not that worried. Its not like I'm parking a car on it, and I wholly believe that we seriously overbuild this stuff. This is my experiment to prove it.

wcfn100

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2010, 06:58:29 PM »
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I rescind my previous objections to using a HCD as benchwork.

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2010, 07:03:07 PM »
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The corner is a bit, but mostly because it dried that way... the foam is supported every 2', at minimum, so I'm not that worried. Its not like I'm parking a car on it, and I wholly believe that we seriously overbuild this stuff. This is my experiment to prove it.


I absolutely agree that we generally overbuild layouts.  For example, I think that L-girder benchwork, which was designed to save lumber as compared to open grid benchwork, also wastes a significant amount of lumber.  I don't need to stand on my layout.  But, I'm worried that gravity, not necessarily weight, will cause a sag in your foam benchwork.

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DKS

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2010, 07:49:01 PM »
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I absolutely agree that we generally overbuild layouts.  For example, I think that L-girder benchwork, which was designed to save lumber as compared to open grid benchwork, also wastes a significant amount of lumber.  I don't need to stand on my layout.  But, I'm worried that gravity, not necessarily weight, will cause a sag in your foam benchwork.

It's not so much the weight of objects that influence layout construction the most; it's the wear and tear of day-to-day life, in addition to construction. People bump into things; people need to lean on one area to reach another. People may need to bear down firmly to file or sand or get something into alignment. I've built many layouts, and each one followed different construction techniques. Looking back, I'd have to say that good old fashioned L-girder was the most reliable and resistant to accidental damage.

I learned a lesson the hard way with my last layout, the WR&N IV. I started out just the way Ed did: foam on shelf brackets. It wasn't long that I realized I needed something much more robust. So I framed the foam with 1x2 lumber screwed to the shelf brackets. This made the layout just barely strong enough to endure the rigors of construction; if I was to start that project over, things would have been quite different.

Ed, you may do just fine the way things are now. But just wait until you or someone leans over to get something under the layout, and bump their head into it while standing back up. Things will go flying. Things will be broken. Things may never be the same again. I'm not saying this will happen, but if I was a betting man, I'd say there's a good chance you will find this approach is not the best.
"Life's a piece of sh!t when you look at it."
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Dave V

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2010, 08:00:58 PM »
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whats in the access hatch you are blocking? ???

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Dave V

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2010, 10:14:37 PM »
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OK, I'm going to argue the other side.

First of all, that shelf is freakin' hawt.  I love the height.  I love the concept.  Get your mainline running groove on without worrying about trying to cram in all the other model railroad must-haves like short, stubby sidings servicing small house-sized industries and the obligatory coal mine.  Railroading is mostly a track through an otherwise empty landscape.  I think the shelf is a great representation of that, and a nice non-traditional way to separate the various aspects of model railroading.

On the other hand I disagree with the "over building" concept.  Yes, you can overbuild a portable layout to the point it's no longer portable, but for a semi-permanent layout, I don't think you can overbuild.  I think you can underbuild.  L-girder is not just about load-bearing.  It's more about stability and preventing warpage.  When the Juniata Division is done wandering and finds a semi-permanent home, it will loose its folding legs and find itself perched on traditional L-girder with braces.  Moreover, knee and cross-braces prevent the inevitable sway and slack that develops in the table legs over time.

On a shelf layout, you do mitigate much of the benchwork stability concerns.  But warpage is still a concern, as is what DKS mentioned.  All it takes is a trip or slip and someone's shoulder or head is going to chew through that layout like it's 2012 and you're John Cusak.  I would at the very least back the foam with Masonite or some sort of particle or peg board just to stiffen it against impacts.

I'm of the opinion that if you're building for semi-keeps, you can't over-build, as long as you make some allowances for removal (like benchwork joints breaking the layout up into chunks that can pass through a door).  I've had it with the "play" in the Juniata Division's legs...  Once I retire from the Air Force I want it mounted such that it could take a direct hit from a JDAM.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 10:16:33 PM by Dave Vollmer »
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wm3798

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2010, 01:08:16 AM »
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I'd argue the third side...  You may be able to scratch your main line itch, but at the end of the day, it will act nothing like a railroad.  Perhaps it's just my bias, but to me there's no point to a main line unless it goes somewhere.  There's no point to a main line train, unless it can be broken down into it's component parts, and the cars can be forwarded to their individual destinations.  Likewise, a straight switching layout becomes dull to me, because you can't witness the cars leaving the scene in a manifest that feels like it's bound for somewhere else..

It might be fun to experiment with some scenery techniques and what not, but wasn't that what the Kidney was for? 

You're not building a model railroad in the truest sense... you're building a glorified train set.

And unsupported foam will come back to bite you...  Especially given the size of the layout.

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sirenwerks

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2010, 01:50:05 AM »
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Yep, not that I plan on needing it much (since most construction can be done with the panels removed). And the signature image is the one below this text, in my sig. I like the "white sky" effect.

I'm not worried about building it, I'm worried about fixing the derailments once it's built and all the trees are on it and the power lines are strung, etc.

And now that I hear there's nothing under that foam, I'm shaking my head. One good heavy raccoon with a love of heights gets in your basement and that layout's toast. Or my female tabby. That foam will snap like a dried twig.
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Philip H

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2010, 08:03:45 AM »
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One good heavy raccoon with a love of heights gets in your basement and that layout's toast. Or my female tabby. That foam will snap like a dried twig.

HA!  Now that desverves to be in the Railwire Banner!
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MichaelWinicki

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2010, 09:56:32 AM »
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I would think just a sheet of luan under the styrofoam would solve a lot of potential problems, and make things easier to attach "stuff" underneath the layout if needed.

Chris333

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2010, 01:37:12 PM »
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A simple cinder block wall backfilled with gravel should be able to support that foam.







 :P

My plans once I get into my house is to build something like Doug Nelson's layout, but about 16' long instead of 10':
http://prr-n-scale.blogspot.com/
I wonder too how to support it though. I like foam a lot, but I cannot imagine ever getting 16' of it level.

Ian MacMillan

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Re: Progress on The Shelf
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2010, 01:42:42 PM »
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My plans once I get into my house is to build something like Doug Nelson's layout, but about 16' long instead of 10':

Odd I've thought of using that trackplan for a layout to take to shows, with the same extension to 16'.
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