Intermountain is Cancelling Reading F7's and more

[Robbman]

Wow... check the MSRP on the old RC/PM Ortner... it's a dollar more than the ESM gon.  That's freaking insane... no... that's beyond insane. 

[conrail98]

For any manufacturers listening... I'm kinda with Rich here. No, I don't want any RDG F7s so the cancellation doesn't effect me so much, but I just don't pre-order. There's the issue of laying out money with it being tied up for years while the manufacturer works at a Beltway pace; the high possibility the product may not be as advertised/expected in terms of quality; and then for those of us trying to remain era conscious, the impossibility of reading the build dates on those piss-poor web images we're supposed to make our ordering decisions on. I'll wait until it arrives at the LHS to see what I am buying, make sure it has the right markings, paint's not dripping off, lettering is printed well, etc. If the basic model/paint is there, I don't mind tweaking it to completely meet my wants but I'm not gonna do the back and forth of buy and exchange, or wait for replacement, or get my hopes let down when I have pre-paid.

I'm right there with you, I don't preorder and probably never will for the reasons you mentioned. Show me the actual model at shows and I might plunk down some reserve cash, like I did for the Atlas C40-8W, but otherwise, I'll wait until the real thing is at my LHS or available online somewhere and in-stock.

Phil

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I believe IM is seeing their past screw ups come into play. If you want robust preorders, your past product has to be worthy of buying sightunseen. There's haven't been, so what do they expect?

If you screw up, you can recover, but don't expect it to be through preorders.

[Mark5]

Wow... check the MSRP on the old RC/PM Ortner... it's a dollar more than the ESM gon.  That's freaking insane... no... that's beyond insane. 

I'm guessing you saw the pic I posted in the Ortner thread 

[inkaneer]

I wonder how many customers they lost when they told Jerry Britton over on the Atlas board that the PRR was a "fifth tier RR".  Whether it was fifth tier or not is not the issue it is just something you do not say to potential customers, especially SPF's.

I would like to see the full quote please instead of the excerpt, so we can read it in the proper context.  But it seems to me they would be referring to how products decorated for the PRR sells for InterMountain, NOT what the status of the actual Pennsylvania Railroad was during its existence.  Given that the Pennsy has been gone for 40 years, it's quite conceivable that the popularity of PRR products is not as strong as it was 20 years ago.

I will say that Pennsy does well for me - but I am not moving the kind of numbers that InterMountain is either.

Search the Atlas archives if you wish.  And to be sure it was their idea of how the PRR, as a roadname, sells and not the status of the PRR as a real railroad.  Nonetheless you don't diss someone's favorite road, especially a SPF's and still expect to sell your product to them. 

[RDG_Rich]

I know there are two sides to every story, and some will say the way the industry handles pre orders and limited production is better, while others will gripe. I don't know how I feel about it, other than the people making decisions are obviously paying attention to the sales staff, which really sucks for certain modelers, while for others, it's a boon. If the Pennsy is a tier 5, My Reading must be a tier MCMIII...whatever (even though it's one of the most famous RR's of all time...thanks Monopoly!) So if I want something, I better get good with scratchbuilding, or switch to HO. On the other hand, We finally get a 4-4-2...Hiawatha, and if you want to model Santa Fe, you can build prototypical trains from all eras.  I am not super upset about these developments, like I had said, even though the FPs and the F7 I would most certainly buy. I understand that IMRC is a business, and if they don't think they can get a decent profit margin off of ol' Rich here, then they shouldn't release them, but it is a real slap in the face to "Indian give" with announcing things they'll never build.

I'll keep my hopes up that Atlas will do an RS3 in the green scheme...and someone will do a nice Northeastern crummy.

[bbussey]

For any manufacturers listening... I'm kinda with Rich here. No, I don't want any RDG F7s so the cancellation doesn't effect me so much, but I just don't pre-order. There's the issue of laying out money with it being tied up for years while the manufacturer works at a Beltway pace; the high possibility the product may not be as advertised/expected in terms of quality; and then for those of us trying to remain era conscious, the impossibility of reading the build dates on those piss-poor web images we're supposed to make our ordering decisions on. I'll wait until it arrives at the LHS to see what I am buying, make sure it has the right markings, paint's not dripping off, lettering is printed well, etc. If the basic model/paint is there, I don't mind tweaking it to completely meet my wants but I'm not gonna do the back and forth of buy and exchange, or wait for replacement, or get my hopes let down when I have pre-paid.

I'm right there with you, I don't preorder and probably never will for the reasons you mentioned. Show me the actual model at shows and I might plunk down some reserve cash, like I did for the Atlas C40-8W, but otherwise, I'll wait until the real thing is at my LHS or available online somewhere and in-stock.

That practice is a thing of the past gentlemen.  Manufacturers can't afford to lay out that type of investment without having some promise of getting it back, and the hobby shops even more so.  The margins are too short, manufacturing and warehouse/inventory costs too high, etcetera.  That's the way it will stay moving forward, and it may get to the point where the quantity manufactured matches exactly the amount reserved.  Currently, a small cushion is built in for those who are late getting reservations in or just missed the boat initially.  But it's a safer bet to manufacture exactly was was reserved and re-run the product in the future if the demand warrants it.

Regarding reservations - manufacturers don't ask for the money up front, only that the distributors/dealers take the merchandise they ordered when it arrives.  I don't know what the brick-and-mortar shops do, but the online shops I know of either ask for a token amount up front from its customers or nothing at all, without insisting that the customer take the product if it turns out the customer doesn't want the product when it arrives.  So I don't know what the aversion is to putting reservations in with your dealers.  The risk is non-existent, and the reward is that something you want actually gets produced.

N scale brass has been this way since the beginning - with actual deposits required and far far longer lead times, sometimes years-long  - and no one has ever complained about that.  Yet a verbal-only commitment to buy and a six-to-nine month wait for injection-molded product is an issue?

The InterMountain FP7 has been out on the market.  This is a matter of paintschemes being quibbled over, not a question over the tooling quality of the model or mechanism.  So, regardless of whether the Reading units would sell well enough if they were produced (and there's a strong possibility they would have) - since there were not enough advance reservations, all the Reading modelers lose out.

I personally model the New Haven, and I've been lucky.  The only NH-related items ever canceled were the brass FL9s from Overland a couple of years ago - after a three-year holding pattern.  We'll see if the Comet from Con-Cor survives the reservation period  But the NH modelers have always stepped up, which gives hope to Rapido tooling the Pullman-Bradley Light Weights in N.  And I will get my reservations in for those, as Rapido already manufactures only to firm reservations.

[bbussey]

Search the Atlas archives if you wish.  And to be sure it was their idea of how the PRR, as a roadname, sells and not the status of the PRR as a real railroad.  Nonetheless you don't diss someone's favorite road, especially a SPF's and still expect to sell your product to them. 

Based upon some comments above of people familiar with the incident, the exchange did not occur the way you implied and the initial statement was intended as I had surmised.  Stating that a certain road doesn't sell as well as others is not a diss.  And in case you hadn't noticed, it hasn't stopped InterMountain from continuing to release PRR product in multiple deco schemes on a regular basis.

[inkaneer]

I haven;t found the first quote but here was the explanation from Marty.

Let me clear one thing up . . .

The QUESTION I was asked that led to the "not first tier" comment was "What are the best selling roadnames and paint schemes" I answered it for IRC, as did (I believe) Paul for Atlas.

Our experience, based on sales, is that GN, the two Canadian railroads (CP, CN) and then UP. SP, and ATSF are InterMountain's best selling road names. Funny, but Maine Central ends up in there right after ATSF . . . .

I didn't say --- although some people think II meanty ---- that PRR wasn't a ""good" railroad to model, OR that IRC would or would not ever make PRR products -- we have and we continue to do so.

One look at our product line will confirm WHY our top-selling roadnames are what they are -- the IRC product line is heavily balanced towards Western railroads -- we have a 12 panel boxcar (GN primarily), a Canadian grain hopper (our all-time best selling freight car), several PFE reefers (there's SP and UP) and an ATSF reefer (for the ATSF). The FT, was, less face it, far more common on Western roads than eastern ones -- accounting for the sales figures there -- and PRR didn't see fit to buy FTs, although I bet they'd sell in PRR red five stripes . . . . although that might send Jerry into some sort of fatal fit. . . .

In short, I have nothing against the PRR. To this transplanted New England, who had never been west of the Appalachians until I was 30 -- I've long felt the PRR was a fascinating Western railroad -- roaming through the wild , uncharted territories of the Keystone state -- WEST -- of the Hudson River. (And as all real New Englanders know, God put the Hudson there to keep the New Yorkers and the Jerseyites away!!!!!


Marty

There was also this:

First of all, re: the "tier" thing . . . . some people don't know when they're having their legs yanked off, let along pulled

Thank you for finding that post.  One paragraph in that post tells the story of why the PRR was a "fifth tier" RR to Intermountain.  Here it is:

"One look at our product line will confirm WHY our top-selling roadnames are what they are -- the IRC product line is heavily balanced towards Western railroads -- we have a 12 panel boxcar (GN primarily), a Canadian grain hopper (our all-time best selling freight car), several PFE reefers (there's SP and UP) and an ATSF reefer (for the ATSF). The FT, was, less face it, far more common on Western roads than eastern ones -- accounting for the sales figures there -- and PRR didn't see fit to buy FTs, although I bet they'd sell in PRR red five stripes . . . . although that might send Jerry into some sort of fatal fit. . . ."

So the PRR is a fifth tier RR to IM because IM didn't produce any PRR stuff.  DUUUH!!! They produced [according to Marty's own words] stuff for western roads.  Notice Marty's words,,  "-- the IRC product line is heavily balanced towards Western railroads -- we have a 12 panel boxcar (GN primarily), a Canadian grain hopper (our all-time best selling freight car), several PFE reefers (there's SP and UP) and an ATSF reefer (for the ATSF). The FT, was, less face it, far more common on Western roads than eastern ones. . . ."  That is no reason for making such an incendiary comment like that.   Meanwhile, the people at Bowser were producing run after run of PRR N5 and N5c cabooses and run after run after run after run after run after run of PRR H21 and Gla hoppers.  If you want to know the answer to the question, "Does PRR sell or are they a 'fifth tier railroad'?"  I would say ask Bowser and not Intermountain.

The comment, no matter if made as humor or not, was terribly unprofessional and unbusiness like.  I am sure it hurt IM to some degree.  Business is tough enough with out adding to it.

[bbussey]

I know there are two sides to every story, and some will say the way the industry handles pre orders and limited production is better, while others will gripe. I don't know how I feel about it, other than the people making decisions are obviously paying attention to the sales staff, which really sucks for certain modelers, while for others, it's a boon. If the Pennsy is a tier 5, My Reading must be a tier MCMIII...whatever (even though it's one of the most famous RR's of all time...thanks Monopoly!) So if I want something, I better get good with scratchbuilding, or switch to HO. On the other hand, We finally get a 4-4-2...Hiawatha, and if you want to model Santa Fe, you can build prototypical trains from all eras.  I am not super upset about these developments, like I had said, even though the FPs and the F7 I would most certainly buy. I understand that IMRC is a business, and if they don't think they can get a decent profit margin off of ol' Rich here, then they shouldn't release them, but it is a real slap in the face to "Indian give" with announcing things they'll never build.

I'll keep my hopes up that Atlas will do an RS3 in the green scheme...and someone will do a nice Northeastern crummy.

But the good news is that FP7s are available, and you can get undecorated shells (with all of the interchangeable parts) from InterMountain and paint them (or have them painted) in a Reading scheme.  So it's not as if there is no opportunity to have Reading FP7s.

Regarding the Atlas RS3 in Reading all-green, I believe they (or maybe Bev-Bel) did that scheme in the 1980s.  However, the same situation applies, as undecorated RS3s are available from Atlas.

Life-Like made the Northeastern caboose in plastic, which was passable, and Overland did a bunch of them in brass.  So they have been done, just not recently.

[wcfn100]

The comment, no matter if made as humor or not, was terribly unprofessional and unbusiness like.  I am sure it hurt IM to some degree.  Business is tough enough with out adding to it.

Actually without the original post, you can't assume anything.  From reading through all the garbage that got generated by oversensitive PRR modelers, Marty may have never even used the word 'tier' in his original post. That seems to have been fabricated by others.  Second, it looks like all he was saying, when the question was asked by a forumer, was that the PRR wasn't one of the top selling roadnames for IRC.

BFD

FWIW, there are later posts that say he said 3rd tier, 4th tier and 5th tier, so I'll call it BS, until I read his actual post.

Jason

[bbussey]

...That is no reason for making such an incendiary comment like that...

What incendiary comment?  That the FT was more common in the west, which is a statement of fact?  :

I'm sure it didn't hurt them at all, since you wouldn't have been buying their product regardless.

[inkaneer]

That practice is a thing of the past gentlemen.  Manufacturers can't afford to lay out that type of investment without having some promise of getting it back, and the hobby shops even more so.  The margins are too short, manufacturing and warehouse/inventory costs too high, etcetera.  That's the way it will stay moving forward, and it may get to the point where the quantity manufactured matches exactly the amount reserved.  Currently, a small cushion is built in for those who are late getting reservations in or just missed the boat initially.  But it's a safer bet to manufacture exactly was was reserved and re-run the product in the future if the demand warrants it.

Regarding reservations - manufacturers don't ask for the money up front, only that the distributors/dealers take the merchandise they ordered when it arrives.  I don't know what the brick-and-mortar shops do, but the online shops I know of either ask for a token amount up front from its customers or nothing at all, without insisting that the customer take the product if it turns out the customer doesn't want the product when it arrives.  So I don't know what the aversion is to putting reservations in with your dealers.  The risk is non-existent, and the reward is that something you want actually gets produced.

N scale brass has been this way since the beginning - with actual deposits required and far far longer lead times, sometimes years-long  - and no one has ever complained about that.  Yet a verbal-only commitment to buy and a six-to-nine month wait for injection-molded product is an issue?

The InterMountain FP7 has been out on the market.  This is a matter of paintschemes being quibbled over, not a question over the tooling quality of the model or mechanism.  So, regardless of whether the Reading units would sell well enough if they were produced (and there's a strong possibility they would have) - since there were not enough advance reservations, all the Reading modelers lose out.

I personally model the New Haven, and I've been lucky.  The only NH-related items ever canceled were the brass FL9s from Overland a couple of years ago - after a three-year holding pattern.  We'll see if the Comet from Con-Cor survives the reservation period  But the NH modelers have always stepped up, which gives hope to Rapido tooling the Pullman-Bradley Light Weights in N.  And I will get my reservations in for those, as Rapido already manufactures only to firm reservations.

What you are saying is that the manufacturers want to eliminate risk.  Yet it is that risk that justifies their profit.  Profit is the reward for risk taking.  Do they also want to forego profit too?  I don't think so.  But what the manufacturers are really doing is not eliminating risk but transferring that risk down the distribution chain to the distributor or the local hobby shop.  So what happens if the manufacturers announce a product and get the preorder numbers they need to warrant production but the product bombs and customers refuse to take the product and cancel their preorders?  Who gets stuck with the loss, the manufacturer or the distributor/hobby shop?  

[wcfn100]

But the good news is that FP7s are available, and you can get undecorated shells (with all of the interchangeable parts) from InterMountain and paint them (or have them painted) in a Reading scheme.  So it's not as if there is no opportunity to have Reading FP7s.

Have you actually tried this with the FP7s?

I was told over the phone by IRC that they didn't have the etched detail parts in house and that it would take a special PO to China to get them (the man I talked to offered to try and sneek a couple in his pocket on his next trip).  I would love to hear that you (or anyone else) had a different experience.


Jason

[inkaneer]

...That is no reason for making such an incendiary comment like that...

What incendiary comment?  That the FT was more common in the west, which is a statement of fact?  :

I'm sure it didn't hurt them at all, since you wouldn't have been buying their product regardless.

No, the comment originally made by Marty in response to Jerry Britton's question.  You just don't diss someone's favoritre road and expect to sell them your product.  Like I said, if you want to know how PRR sells ask Bowser not IM.  And no, I did not buy their product but that decision was not because of Marty's statement.  I had F7's from Kato which I was perfectly satisfied with even though they came with a ridge of plastic for grabs instead of IM's F 7's that came with "Free standing hand rails".   ;D