Why Oh Why Oh Why "O"?

[3rdrail]

After reading something related to PRR whistles, discovered that Lionel of all companies is making a PRR CC2s 0-8-8-0 in O scale for $2K. PRR had only 10 of these that rarely if ever left Columbus, Ohio, yard limits. Not only that, but checking the Lionel website, I find a 3000-series ATSF 2-10-10-2 for $2.5K

I thought N scalers outnumbered O scalers by at least 5 to 1, yet these two highly esoteric articulateds are available in O, but many common steam locomotives can't be found in N. We can't even get common locos like PRR H10s 2-8-0's or ATSF 1000-class 2-6-2's in N scale!

Have we gotten such a "rep" as pennypinchers that the manufacturers are afraid to offer decent steam at a higher price?

[wm3798]

Not so much penny pinchers as perhaps model bashers...  Imagine the horror if that H-10-s were released with a boiler that was 6" too long, or drivers that were 2" too large.  Or if said H-10s couldn't pull 100 cars up a 4% grade...

The O scale crowd, particularly the 3-rail set, usually could care less if their model never ran outside of Columbus, as long as it has a sound card that goes "Toot Toot" and a smoker that stinks up their basement.

To paraphrase Lennon, Lionel could sell a turd in a box as long as it has a Lionel label and a sound chip.

Lee

[lock4244]

A big, impressive looking steamer will sell. Probably the same thinking lead to B-Mann's DD40AX, which is a one road pony.

Here and on other forums I've read threads about why is it that you can get decent N steam in Europe and Japan for their markets, and yet very little is done in North America? I have no plans of ever modeling the steam or transition era, but if a reasonably accurate CN Northern or CP Hudson existed in N, I'd dabble a bit. Do you think it is because steam was somewhat road specific or made to order?

[sizemore]

Lionel has been around since God invented dirt. On the eighth day there was Lionel...found that in the lost chapters of La Biblia.

Lionel caters to the guys that A. have money and B. dont give a rats-@$$ about scale appearance, they just want to move product so if it's unique they know they can get 2k+ for a loco.

N Scalers are a different breed, plain and simple we want bang for the buck without losing our shirts.

That whole scale thing makes a difference too. It's easier to design a 1/48 2-10-10-2 that operates fairly pulls a few cars than a 1/160 2-10-10-2 that runs like a Swiss watch and pulls up the carpet. Because of A and B it's pretty much self explanatory.

[asarge]

thought N scalers outnumbered O scalers by at least 5 to 1,

Gregg,

What makes you think that. N scale is in 2nd for number of modellers but Lionel is not that far behind. Up until this year thewy had been gaining a larger share of newbies due to sales of Polar Express, Thomas and a couple of other sets.

The economy however has shrunk the newbies wallets as well as their entry scale.

[3rdrail]

thought N scalers outnumbered O scalers by at least 5 to 1,

Gregg,

What makes you think that. N scale is in 2nd for number of modellers but Lionel is not that far behind. Up until this year thewy had been gaining a larger share of newbies due to sales of Polar Express, Thomas and a couple of other sets.

The economy however has shrunk the newbies wallets as well as their entry scale.

Last figures I saw were HO: 77%, N: 17%, O:3 or 4%, which was admittedly from MR and probably reflected its readers.

[Bob Bufkin]

Gregg:

Am interested in what you found about PRR whistles.  What class used what (normally).  I know of the banshee and steamboat and have heard recordings of them.  Also understand that a chime whistle was used by L1 and I1's.  Is this the same as a steamboat? 

Also what other whistles were used.

Bob

[tom mann]

Last figures I saw were HO: 77%, N: 17%, O:3 or 4%, which was admittedly from MR and probably reflected its readers.

Since Lionel is sold in toy stores, it must be bigger than N.

[3rdrail]

Gregg:

Am interested in what you found about PRR whistles.  What class used what (normally).  I know of the banshee and steamboat and have heard recordings of them.  Also understand that a chime whistle was used by L1 and I1's.  Is this the same as a steamboat? 

Also what other whistles were used.

Bob

PRR classified them as "freight" (banshee) or "passenger" (steamboat) whistles. There were at least three distinct multi-chime passenger whistles cast at Juniata. After WW II, as older passenger power was scrapped, its whistles replaced the banshee on everything except switchers and some Consolidations.  As with most things PRR, look at the specific locomotive.

BTW, beginning with the M1's, all power got "passenger type" whistles when built.

[Bob Bufkin]

Thanks.  That's basically the same info I'm aware of.   I just purchased the Semaphore CD on PRR steam and it mentions chime whistles and this kinda thru me off.  Don't know what their definition of chime whiselt is.

Bob

[Erik W]

Last figures I saw were HO: 77%, N: 17%, O:3 or 4%, which was admittedly from MR and probably reflected its readers.

I always wonder about the true percentages myself.  I'm not sure if we'll ever have a clear picture.  I also think sales figures may be higher for N modelers vs. HO when compared to the percentage that model in each scale.  My logic is that since N scale is smaller people tend to buy a higher quantity of locos, rolling stock, etc.  That's just a guess though.

You guys may find this interesting.  One thing that working at IMRC made me realize was just how modest the production figures really are.  Most modelers estimate a couple of decimal places in the wrong direction.  The below figures are for the period after IMRC jumped on the preorder bandwagon and only manufactured what would sell.   Some of IMRC F unit runs were less than 100 units.  The Central of Georgia F3s, for example, were only a run of 50 A units.  That's 12 or 13 per road number!  Most loco runs were 100 to 350 units and most popular rolling stock runs (cylindrical hoppers, 4650 3 bays, etc.) were in the 350 to 700 range.  The not so popular rolling stock were runs of around 250 to 300 cars.  That was for N scale stuff, HO generally would have production runs about the same to about twice as many.  I know the other MRR manufacturers had similar size productions runs (maybe somewhat bigger).  InterMountain's largest production run that I know of was the first run of N scale D&RGW SD40T-2s at 3000 units.  Certainly anyone who speculates that production runs, for any company, are more than the low 1000s is way off the mark.

I know that a lot of the new, expensive brass stuff ($2K or higher) is produced in runs that are only in the dozens of units.

Erik

[wm3798]

That's interesting, Erik, but not at all surprising.  If you figure that there's a couple hundred units per road name, that adds up to a couple thousand mechanisms and shells per run.  This is logical given the limited production runs yet the wider variety of paint schemes available.  This leads to a nice steady sales trend over time.  One question would be are the mechanisms and shells shot in huge numbers, then painted with each release, or is it a complete manufacturing process for each release?

Bachmann still must do it the old way, where they trot out a model that is offered in 4 road names in perpetuity resulting in a crescendo in sales at the front end, then a more modest trickle over the following years as the inventory draws down.

Lee

[Erik W]

One question would be are the mechanisms and shells shot in huge numbers, then painted with each release, or is it a complete manufacturing process for each release?

Lee

Lee,

At IMRC, since most of the injection molding was done in house in Longmont, generally you'd do many thousands of shots per mold and store them upstairs.  If IMRC had 4 F3 runs they were doing, they would package the parts up for the four runs and send them to China, while at the same time order a like number of mechanisms from the factory there. 

The pricing IMRC was charged was based on an actual decorated run not any kind of discount for producing the four runs together.  The cost charged by the factory varies by how complicated the paint scheme was and how many "hits" were required for the pad printing.  There was a minimum order number, but from my first hand experience, that was flexible.  Many times I thought we'd be charged extra for a small quantity, we weren't.  I chalk that up to a good personal relationship with our Chinese engineer in charge over there.

Erik

[lock4244]

Bachmann still must do it the old way, where they trot out a model that is offered in 4 road names in perpetuity resulting in a crescendo in sales at the front end, then a more modest trickle over the following years as the inventory draws down.

Lee

Crescendo in sales? Lee, you are generous  ;D

[Bob Bufkin]

Lee is correct using that term.  Bachmann is like Lionel - lots of trains sold in toy stores!