MTL 89' Flatcar Painted TTX

[asarge]

I'll see all the money in your pocket, and raise you the change in my couch!

I'll see the couch change and raise you all the change I found under the old dryer last weekend.

Regardless of price this will sell out very quickly. I'm sure Atlas will offer an 89' flat sonner or later, but it more than likely won't be a TM release. I would also expect that somebody else is working on some kind of pig flat or an AP Flat.

Either way, I'm more interested in the GT 60's Boxcar and the Fox River Butter car this month.

[Mark5]

My wallet talks to EF Hutton, and EF Hutton says there's nuttin for me in the Feb releases!

[James Costello]

Gotta love the decision makers at MTL.

"We'll release a classic 80's trailer scheme on a flat car that can only be run in the 90's.

Oh while we're at it, we'll also do a relatively rare Golden Pig/Olympic Espee trailer... we haven't done the more common plain Golden Pig scheme in the 20 years we've had the model, why should we start now?"

Don't get me started on the 89' flat....

[Robbman]

Also, based on the estimates over at Trainboard for how many pad printing hits it takes to paint a dome roof, I can only assume that each individual letter on these flats is 2 hits on the pad printer.

Don't forget the 100 hits just to paint the deck...

[daniel_leavitt2000]

I know one manufacturer is doing the 89' flats. These will not come out soon and I can not add any more info then that. I belive two other manufacturers are also working on 89' flat projects but info is a bit more sketchy.

[Robbman]

I know one manufacturer is doing the 89' flats. These will not come out soon and I can not add any more info then that. I belive two other manufacturers are also working on 89' flat projects but info is a bit more sketchy.

And it's probably becuase of posts like this that nobody wants to tell you anything... just a thought.

[Atlanticflier]

I know one manufacturer is doing the 89' flats. These will not come out soon and I can not add any more info then that. I belive two other manufacturers are also working on 89' flat projects but info is a bit more sketchy.

And it's probably becuase of posts like this that nobody wants to tell you anything... just a thought.

OR.. maybe it's because of post like that this, that some manufacturers DO tell something.....just a thought (deliberate guessing game ! - you know the saying..any Buzz is better than no buzz....)

[Walkercolt]

Actually, I'm convinced that manufactorers "test the waters" with well placed "hints". I know the plastic model companies do on plastic model forums. Hobby companies don't live in a vaccum. Horizon has more feelers out than some kind of sea creature. Bachmann "teases" the On30 market with "test samples" and if there's enough "bites", some things get made, and some don't(for a while). Car companies have done this for years and years with "concept cars" at car shows. Believe me, there are lots of people out there wanting our money we spend on trains, and if they can figure a way to make a buck doing it, they will. Things are tight now. The "announcements" were in planning several years ago, so "new" things will take some "lead time", and lots of gut$ for somebody to cut tooling. But even in this economy, we were told by 6 major companies in N-scale at the OKC N-Scale banquet they were actively working on new products, and most of them had pre-production samples or "test shots" to show us.

[sirenwerks]

And it's probably becuase of posts like this that nobody wants to tell you anything... just a thought.

And yet, it seems someone has.

Actually, I'm convinced that manufactorers "test the waters" with well placed "hints".

Hmmm, the political leak to affect the polls, what a novel idea. What's curious to me is, while no way scientific, the manufacturers have a great asset in forums such as this. I believe Atllas recognizes it and hence has developed their very own. It's funny how, at least on the two forums I frequent, major manufacturers (Atlas excluded) seem to have their favorites. MT, Kato, IM, Red Caboose could all benefit from the ideas and informal polling occurring on this and the A-board but you don't hear boo from them. But you hear of their commentary in other places.

I know they get called out often on errors in product and service but these days the corporate buzzword is transparency and negative situations can easily be turned to positive with a little marketing savvy. Of course, I don't see whole lot of that from the larger manufacturers - Atlas excluded IMO, they seem to be both reactive and proactive in many ways. This doesn't include a lot of smaller manufacturers, like TrainCat and Fox Valley, who seem to be very active here and thus responsive.

But back to the savvy thing, it amazes me that, with the cost of bringing a product to market being so dear, why more manufacturers don't use more 'scientific' means of decided how to spend it, as in what products to concentrate on. Like, good forbid, a poll. I'm not knockin' ear to the ground product development, but when you operate like that you have to be doubly assertive to maintain environmental scanning to not only know what the consumer wants, but what the competitors are doing, what your suppliers and distributors are doing, etc. If that tacit agreement ever existed that was supposed to limit double takes in model development, it seems to have broken down. And I don't think that's a good thing. If the airlines can cartel to set rate standards, surely MRR manufacturers can email each others' product development department to get a feel of what's coming down the pike.

[DKS]

...with the cost of bringing a product to market being so dear, why more manufacturers don't use more 'scientific' means of decided how to spend it, as in what products to concentrate on.

One possible problem: cost. It takes money to obtain data such as this--as in someone's time, and time = money. With the exception of the bigger companies, most are likely operating very close to the margins, and time must first be spent getting product out the door, else the lights don't stay on. It's a vicious cycle, since it takes money to do intelligent marketing in order to increase sales in order to maintain production, but if the money isn't there to begin with, it all goes into production. Not to mention the typical small company will have a very small staff, and the likelihood of an experienced product manager/marking manager being among them is probably slim.

Like, good forbid, a poll.

Not sure if polls--at least the online variety--are very reliable. The online population represents a small fraction of the total modeling population, and so the results may be rather skewed. Better results would cost even more money to obtain, as it requires time, effort and resources to conduct (see above). Plus, modelers' wish lists are usually so varied that it may be hard to obtain a meaningful convergence of results.

All IMO, of course, with no assurances any of this is true.

[sirenwerks]

David, you're right, advertising is expensive. But having spent the majority of my professional life (to date) in the nonprofit sector, I can say with some confidence that there are some pretty crafty low-cost ways to reach out to consumers, outside of the internet. Shows, for instance. It doesn't take rocket science know-how to create a meaningful poll or to talk tol passers by. Magazines are another method to reach e-challenged audiences, and aren't that expensive. Heck, just listening to the consumers and potential consumers who offer their suggestions, not shirking them off. Or heeding the word of an 'industry opinion leader' like Charlie Vlk.

I see it a lot in nonprofits and in small businesses too, where 'marketing' money is pigeon-holed to advertising after the fact, pushing a product. Some of the most effective marketing expenses are garnered before and during product conceptualization and development. The key is to design a product that will, in essence, sell itself. And what better way than to give the customer what he or she wants? Then again, I see too many 'marketers' that believe they know exactly what the customer wants, so they feel they don't need to ask or endure fools such as myself. More often then not though they're fooling themselves and their product falls flat or is not at all cost-effective as it requires so much advertising to sell it.

Personally, I would be happy to offer my opinion to manufacturers and to test products, for free.

[Robbman]

Personally, I would be happy to offer my opinion to manufacturers and to test products, for free.

You don't like RTR, and you haven't come up with that business plan to sell kits through all five distributors... so your opinion means zilch at the moment.

[DKS]

...I can say with some confidence that there are some pretty crafty low-cost ways to reach out to consumers, outside of the internet.

Unfortunately, you need to be crafty to come up with them. Craftiness is not a universal given.

Shows, for instance. It doesn't take rocket science know-how to create a meaningful poll or to talk tol passers by.

Shows cost money. Some cost a lot. In some cases, it's probably a choice for the guy between air fare to the show, or raw materials for production. Plus it takes time. Days to prepare. Days to attend. Days they don't get to be answering emails and making products.

Or heeding the word of an 'industry opinion leader' like Charlie Vlk.

They've got to know who the real "industry opinion leaders" are before they can rely on what people tell them. They're going to get a ton of advice from every Larry, Moe and Curly who think their opinions matter. It takes homework to separate the wheat from the chaff, and homework takes... time.

I agree that some of this stuff should be fall-off-the-log simple, but when you're up to your a$$ in aligators, just coming up with ideas, let alone carrying them out, takes a back seat to getting product out the door.

After spending 25 years in marketing, I've rubbed elbows with owners of companies that ranged from one-man shops to global corporations. It almost doesn't matter what industry you're talking about; most small shops operate the same way.

[Walkercolt]

Guys, we all have to admit to ourselves, the "serious" modeler in most scales are the tiny-itsy-bitsy minority. The "great un-washed-Rapido-running-knuckle-dragging-mouth-breathers" buy more stuff the shop and at train shows far and away. A couple of guys in the club have CLEANED-UP selling Rapdios to "deconvert" MT, Atlas, and other cars with knuckle couplers. "Razor" has sold over $250 worth of Rapidos at $1 a pair thru our store! I've got $50 worth of them sold on ebay waiting on payment from last week alone. They always sell. MT doesn't run more 89' flats because many people can't pull a string of them around a 9 3/4" radius at 150SMPH. I can't keep the little Atlas "beer can" tankcars and "ore jenneys" in stock, because people buy a bunch of them so they have lots of short cars on their trains. That's almost a quote, and the customer was dissapointed they didn't have Rapidos on them(sigh!), so I made him a "conversion car". He bought a dozen of each for his door-sized layout of Bachmann EZ track(double sigh!). It's a cruel, cruel world.

[asarge]

Walkercolt is very, very correct on that score. Cuteness does sell a lot and the longer cars have less of a market in N unless they have "neat" colors. Unfortunately far too many older n scalers will convert to rapido's but fortunately the younger ones are shying away from anything with Rapido's as less and less starter sets have cars and loco's with them.

You know, the manufacturer's are very good at listening and reaching out for consumers wants. But sooo many factor's enter into the mix as too what gets done that alot doesn;t end up getting done. I've heard that Athearn continuosly has over 40 projects going on, a fairly high percentage are N scale, but when you consider cost to produce vs projection of sales, some projects just may not get done. We all have our cars and schemes we want and when we don't get what we want or something comes out that we don't understand the reasoning behind, we get venemous. Too me that just silly. Manufacturer's must have a pretty thick skin.

Hint dropping is just a way to build buzz. It's all part of the game.