Walthers 130' turntable space requirement

[keeper]

This is a question to all who have the Walthers 130' turntable and the matching engine shed.

What would be the minimum space requirement for the turntable and a 9 or 12 stalls engine shed?
It would be much appreciated if someone could provide a rough measurement. The documents on the Walthers website doesn't show this or I am blind.

Thank you.

[nickelplate759]

Have you looked at the Footprint diagrams that Walthers provides?

Look here for the roundhouse: 
https://www.walthers.com/3-stall-modern-roundhouse-kit-10-13-16-x-3-15-16-27-4-x-10cm-stall-width-at-rear-3-3-16-8-1cm

The turntable is listed as 10 3/8" diameter.   

A little trigonometry should get you what else you need for your deployment.

[Rasputen]

The turntable instructions say to allow 1 15/16 inches between the lip of the turntable pit and the front of the roundhouse.

[keeper]

Thanks for the replies.
Duh, somehow I missed the detail for the space between the turntable and engine shed.

#-|

[keeper]

So, after checking my available space and the space I might need, I've come to the conclusion that it will be a tight fit and might look too crammed.
Using just the 3 stall Walthers roundhouse and maybe one or two additional tracks at the side of it, an idea came to my mind to use one or two  three-way turnouts - like the Peco ones - instead of the turntable.

Would this be prototypical?

[garethashenden]

It depends on the era. With steam, a turntable is pretty much expected. I have seen one example of a Central Vermont roundhouse that had the turntable pit filled in and a switch laid across it. But it was small. Originally three stalls, only two with the switch. The other one had windows installed.

The problem is with the diverging angle. A turntable lets tracks radiate out at 360°. A switch can probably manage a 10° stall spacing, but 15° would be pushing it. If they needed three stalls they would leave the turntable. There's also the example of the Maine Central roundhouse at Beecher Falls VT. It was steadily reduced over the years down to just one stall, but they kept the turntable. I think turntable no roundhouse is more realistic than roundhouse no turntable.

[thomasjmdavis]

If you only need a 3 stall building, my thought would be to make a building to fit parallel yard tracks- a rectangular structure,  rather than a roundhouse.  You would still need a method for turning locomotives- such as a wye or a return loop, or a turntable mounted in a more convenient location than the tight space you are currently working on.

Here is a link to a GN (not round) engine house in HO  https://modelrailroadforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/3-stall-engine-house.35945/

An approach in N (assuming such a building does not exist in N) would be to modify a roundhouse kit, or piece together parts from two 2-stall engine house kits, or find a couple of the old factory kits that have a wall and clerestory that are similar to those used in a roundhouse. 

[Slim Rail Mike]

The State Belt Railroad in San Francisco had a roundhouse but never a turntable.  It had as you suggested  some lapped switches leading into the stalls. The roundhouse still stands today. It has five stalls if I recall. The State Belt ran small switchers so adjustments may be needed for larger power.

Edit. As to the shape I understood the roundhouse being wider at the end of the stall allowed more work space to service the running gear. Don't know if that true but it makes sence.

Michael

[nkalanaga]

If you're using a loco that doesn't have to be turned, such as most tank engines, most geared steam locos, or many small steamers with pilots and headlights on the tender for branchline use, no, you wouldn't need a turntable. 

As for the reason the stalls are wider at the outer end, it's basically just geometry.  But, yes, most railroads put the front of the loco at the outer end to have more room for working.

[keeper]

This is all good info, especially this:

I think turntable no roundhouse is more realistic than roundhouse no turntable.

The thing is, I'm thinking big steam here, Cab Forward and the likes (maybe one day a DMIR Yellowstone....). So either the roundhouse or a square stall must be long enough and if I find space for a turntable, the one from Walthers is the only one which is long enough as far as I know.
Another idea might be to go the wye route with a stall inside the wye area. Channing in the UP of Michigan had that. There is not much left now except some tracks.

Och well, some more thinking I guess...

[robert3985]

The Walther's turntable represents the type of UP turntable that included the largest ever made to accommodate the 25 Big Boys purchased in 1941.  Although the Walthers turntable is a few scale feet shorter than the longest 135' turntables located in Ogden, Green River, etc...just like the shorter prototype in Cheyenne, Big Boys still fit on the turntable...just tightly.

Since the original home of the Big Boys was Ogden, the new modern-style 20 stall roundhouse, built a few years earlier, didn't have any stalls that would accommodate the 4000's in 1941, so nine stalls were lengthened which included a three stall, extra-long machine shop so the giant engines could be properly shopped and serviced, which they regularly were on a rotating basis.

Photos of Big Boys sitting on the turntable from 1941 to 1954 also show maybe another Big Boy being serviced, just the end of the tender showing, then maybe a Challenger or two, a few FEF's, then mostly much smaller engines occupying several of the roundhouse's other stalls or on the long 100'+ lead-in tracks between the pit and the stall doors.  Later photos show more and more diesel engines, Turbines with fewer oil-fired engines, the biggest being 3700 Class Challengers.  Both the Standard & Veranda Turbines as well as the Challengers in helper service needed to be serviced and turned, making both turntable & roundhouse essential.  Big Boys were also present before March of 1954 and other coal-fired steam engines too.  So, not only steam, but also diesel engines were turned when necessary with them being seen together every day in the transition years.

Photo (1) - Ogden Roundhouse probably 1942-1943:


Photo (2) - Ogden Roundhouse probably early 1970's:


I have eventual plans to build the Ogden Engine Facilities and part of the yard, not as part of my layout, but in Free-moN format to take to shows.  My business partner thinks that would be a great crowd-pleaser, and I have a tendency to agree with him.

If I only had limited space...like really limited, just enough room for a large, modern turntable and a few stalls, I would seriously consider doing the turntable, minimizing the pit-to-stall-door distance (which the Walthers Modern Roundhouse + Turntable already does), building three long stalls to accommodate long engines that you've mentioned, and then building the rest of the roundhouse so that the shorter stalls stop in a cut-away at your layout's fascia...and then detail and light the interior, to be viewed from the cut-away...and put a few smaller engines in it with one undergoing a major shopping.  The progressively shorter stalls wouldn't all be cut-aways, but shorter steam engines, as well as diesel engines could be being serviced inside, with the cut-away stalls revealing the interior because the roundhouse would be lit.

I am planning on making portions of the roof removable on my full-sized roundhouse/turntable in my Ogden modules, because engines inside the 'house can't be seen...prototypically, just the rear of the tenders if the stall doors are open, and there is a lot of very interesting detailing that can be done to the inside of a major railroad's big roundhouse, so being able to take the roof off to show interior detailing and what went on in a big roundhouse is something I want to show.

So, instead of looking at your limited space as a restriction, look at it as an opportunity to make something on your layout that is really interesting, utilizing your layout's edge to slice through the structure in order to reveal seldom-seen and seldom-done detailing inside the roundhouse.

Just a thought!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[nkalanaga]

The wye and enginehouse would be acceptable.  For the prototype, it would take more room, but there could be reasons that a turntable wouldn't be practical, or where they needed to turn more than just a locomotive.

It would probably be used with a rectangular engine house, no more than three or four tracks, rather than a multi-stall roundhouse.

[peteski]

Yes, using a ROUNDhouse with a triangular-shape wye arrangement sort of wouldn't make sense. 

[garethashenden]

Yes, using a ROUNDhouse with a triangulsr-shape wye arrangement sort of wouldn't make sense. 

One option would be to have an older smaller roundhouse and turntable with a wye built either around it or nearby.

[wm3798]

Another consideration might be the nature of the terminal.  Given that you're looking to run those gigantic steamers, but have a limited amount of space for the terminal, perhaps you're not looking at a big division point, but rather an intermediate facility that services engines for a helper district, a belt line terminal road, or a branch line junction.  The turntable will be much more space efficient than a wye, especially if your operation requires this to be a point where engines need turned.  (More of a model railroad requirement than a proto ops situation).

You could have a facility with a turntable that's big enough to turn a cab-forward or a Big Boy in the event of an "emergency"  (such as not having room for a division point terminal!) but otherwise the scenery and structures would be indicative of a more modest function, such as sanding and watering a consolidation to meander up the branch line, or even as a car repair facility that makes use of the old terminal turntable, perhaps from the earlier days when divisions were shorter.

This would require a turntable with a couple of fan tracks, the footprint of an old roundhouse with maybe one or two surviving bays to service and store the locally used engines, and an old shop building off to the side with a couple of tracks in it, accessed either from the TT or a siding.  A water column and an oil/coal bunker suited to the local use would be less dominating, but adequate to set the scene.

See if that doesn't bring things into focus.
Lee