The Mill Loop

[OldEastRR]

My suggestion is to choose a small part of the prototype and build that. No way you can condense such a large footprint into 3'x7'. Picking a bit here and bit there from the prototype, trying to squeeze them all together, and carry out in this tiny space all the operations the plant had   -- you may not find it satisfying.



This plan represents the core of an interesting part of the industry space: spurs (from the LH side of the dwg) to the tissue plant, paper mill #2, the bag plant, paper mill#1, the loop around them, and a small yard connected to it. I'm not familiar with Unitrack, plus AnyRail only gives you 50 free pieces, so it looks a little wonky (the yard needs building out). But some Unitrack whiz can probably put in all the right pieces. It looks pretty much like the actual plant/track layout, but with the small yard in this area just single-ended. The way the spurs are laid makes it easy to make a cohesive industrial area, because building groupings usually are all aligned the same way: bag plant, paper mill 2, tissue mill form a neat compact clump.

This plan gives you lots of industry switching with the wide range of cars a paper mill needs, both inbound and out. There's yard operation (which is also the interchange) for a switcher, and the loop provides a continuous run. There's no switches on the top (back) side so no need for access for ops, so you can keep that side against the wall. In fact you can probably access everything from just the front and RH side.

The most important aspect of this plan is it can be used as-is for a bigger version of the layout. It looks pretty close to the real trackage, so it can incorporated into a bigger layout that has other parts of the prototype area.

Too many people scrap or dismantle a small layout when they move on to a bigger one. All that work to build it, gone. This layout can be  integrated into a bigger model of this prototype with a little alteration. Or built onto -- with modules. A track coming off the LH side and going straight to the front edge could lead to a module of the track and buildings in the lower LH corner of the prototype plan. Or have the yard lead go off the RH edge onto a module that has the stud mill, plywood plants, the other builldings near them, a bigger yard, and even a MoPac interchange track.

So ... look at this plan, then the one you have now. Which one looks more like part of the the prototype?

[Tad_T]

I really don’t even want to go into all that has went on so far this year. I haven’t had the time for railroading or any other hobbies until recently. It’s been so damned hot in the afternoons, I have been spending some railroad time in the air conditioning.

I got my Sprog3 hooked up with Decoder Pro on a dedicated railroad laptop. I have one of my old AD&N GP28’s refurbished and running. It’s a Classic Atlas GP30/35 chassis with a TCS CN-GP decoder. It runs great. So, I cleaned and lubed it. I’m going to run it as is for now.

The other two old GP28’s have issues. I have gotten newer Atlas mechanisms for them. One needs a little touch up and it is ready. I need to get a decoder for the third one.

I do have the layout set up with the draft plan that was discussed above.  I have the outer loop temporarily wired up and have been able to run my two GP’s around for some extended testing/break in. I have to get some more feeders made so that I can wire the rest of the layout. 

I set the layout up in Operations Pro and have done some simulations. I think that can be useful in seeing if a feller’s ideas on how a track plan should work for Operations really will.

What’s cool about Unitrack is that it is not difficult to try different configurations as long as you have enough pieces.

I’m back to working on the layout and on my fleet. Hopefully I can maintain some momentum for a while.

[Tad_T]

My suggestion is to choose a small part of the prototype and build that. No way you can condense such a large footprint into 3'x7'. Picking a bit here and bit there from the prototype, trying to squeeze them all together, and carry out in this tiny space all the operations the plant had   -- you may not find it satisfying.



This plan represents the core of an interesting part of the industry space: spurs (from the LH side of the dwg) to the tissue plant, paper mill #2, the bag plant, paper mill#1, the loop around them, and a small yard connected to it. I'm not familiar with Unitrack, plus AnyRail only gives you 50 free pieces, so it looks a little wonky (the yard needs building out). But some Unitrack whiz can probably put in all the right pieces. It looks pretty much like the actual plant/track layout, but with the small yard in this area just single-ended. The way the spurs are laid makes it easy to make a cohesive industrial area, because building groupings usually are all aligned the same way: bag plant, paper mill 2, tissue mill form a neat compact clump.

This plan gives you lots of industry switching with the wide range of cars a paper mill needs, both inbound and out. There's yard operation (which is also the interchange) for a switcher, and the loop provides a continuous run. There's no switches on the top (back) side so no need for access for ops, so you can keep that side against the wall. In fact you can probably access everything from just the front and RH side.

The most important aspect of this plan is it can be used as-is for a bigger version of the layout. It looks pretty close to the real trackage, so it can incorporated into a bigger layout that has other parts of the prototype area.

Too many people scrap or dismantle a small layout when they move on to a bigger one. All that work to build it, gone. This layout can be  integrated into a bigger model of this prototype with a little alteration. Or built onto -- with modules. A track coming off the LH side and going straight to the front edge could lead to a module of the track and buildings in the lower LH corner of the prototype plan. Or have the yard lead go off the RH edge onto a module that has the stud mill, plywood plants, the other builldings near them, a bigger yard, and even a MoPac interchange track.

So ... look at this plan, then the one you have now. Which one looks more like part of the the prototype?

So, after I built the draft layout above and simulated it in Operations Pro while staring at it real hard, I hated it.

Several reasons.

1. It didn't look enough like any part of the Crossett Mills.

2. The Operations did not resemble the the prototype closely enough.

3. I don't want to build this as a stand alone layout.

I really have always thought that if I ever get to build the "BIG" All Day & Night that the Mills would be on a peninsula.



The only way that I thought that would work, would be to eliminate the back then empty area to the south of the Mills. Slide the Mill Loop south and align the Mill Loop on the peninsula with the Chemical Plant, the Stud Mill, and the Plywood Mills.

I would put the wye and the AD&N Shops, which I already have built, at the base of the peninsula and unfold Pond Pass Yard and the MoPac Interchange around the walls on opposite sides of the peninsula and then go from there.

This is a long winded way of saying that I have been thinking of doing exactly what you were talking about for pretty much the exact same reasons.

This is what I built on the layout. Then I went and drew it up in XTrackCAD. I confirmed each piece as I drew it.

The Mill Loop V9.



So, I did it kinda like you were talking about but different. I can pull the layout away from the wall for Operations. I tried coming in from the left bottom like you did in your example, but I didn't like the geometry. It also limited the depth that was available for the Mills. So I dropped that spur on the other side of the "Old Mill" and swung it around to align with the other spurs coming from the south side of the Loop.

This would make the left two spurs going into the Tissue Warehouse.

The middle spur would be the Chemical Track.

The fourth spur would Paper Mill #2, the "New Mill."

The fifth spur comes in from the opposite direction but goes to the Bag Plant.

Up at the "Old Mill" the top most track is the Chemical Track.

The bottom track goes into the "Old Mill" warehouse. I'll probably have to drop that spur down a little further.

I kept the double crossovers at the south side of the Loop. They provide a few positives that I believe out weighs the unprototypicalness.

If I look at this as a module in the peninsula they provide a prebuilt exit to both ends.

They give me a decent runaround.

And for now, the South leg extends the Yard Lead the length of the layout. The Yard is really just a place holder for now. I'm going to have to fool around and make a yard extension. Probably some type of TTrak-esque module dealie. This could allow me to extend the Loop if I take away room for the Yard.

I think that I might have just figured out the start of V10. :sneaky:

Well, tell me what y'all think.

[Tad_T]

The Mill Loop V10.

This is what is currently on the layout table.




I really don't think that I can get a whole lot closer.

[Tad_T]

I dug through my pieces and figured out how to put in a # 6.

The other thing is, if I take and run with the idea that this is the end of the peninsula, all of this on the right side is going to end up being reworked anyway. I will probably be making adjustments as I figure out how to add a yard/staging so that I can start doing some switching.


This is the portion of the Crossett Mills that the Mill Loop is now trying to replicate.






Given the limitations on space and that I have placed on myself by using a sectional track, such as Kato Unitrack, I'm thinking that this may have to be it.

North is up.





So, basically what I have done is narrow my focus and zoom in on one particular section of the Crossett Mills and try to model it with greater fidelity to the prototype.

Oddly enough, it seems that operations have broadened.

The way that the Mills were switched by the AD&N this section is where two "Routes" were worked. The first was the "Paper Route" which worked both paper mills, the tissue mill, and the bag plant. The second was the "Chemical Route" which switched all of the Chem Tracks at the mills.

I'm thinking to break these two jobs into four jobs. A "Paper Route - North" and a "Paper Route - South." A "Chem Route - North" and a "Chem Route - South."

I think that I should alternate them in the schedule so that both sides could be worked without interfering with each other if you had two operators/crews.

Comments and criticisms welcome.

[eja]

Enjoying your design process.

I do wonder if this really need two double cross-overs?  Sound expensive and doesn't seem prototypical to me.

Just wondering ......

[Sumner]

Enjoying your design process.

I do wonder if this really need two double cross-overs?  Sound expensive and doesn't seem prototypical to me.

Just wondering ......

Agree, is the purpose to run around a train with an engine to the other end using the short track after the double cross-over or for future expansion?

Sumner
 

[Tad_T]

Enjoying your design process.

I do wonder if this really need two double cross-overs?  Sound expensive and doesn't seem prototypical to me.

Just wondering ......

Agree, is the purpose to run around a train with an engine to the other end using the short track after the double cross-over or for future expansion?

Sumner
 

Thanks for looking in and commenting , gentlemen.


From above.

I kept the double crossovers at the south side of the Loop. They provide a few positives that I believe out weighs the unprototypicalness.

If I look at this as a module in the peninsula they provide a prebuilt exit to both ends.

They give me a decent runaround.

And for now, the South leg extends the Yard Lead the length of the layout.  ...  I'm going to have to fool around and make a yard extension. Probably some type of TTrak-esque module dealie.

I plan to have a yard/staging coming off of the lower right/Southeast corner.

A photo from my collection taken about 1980. This photo is taken from the Southwest (lower left of the layout).  The building with the black roof is the Tissue Mill.  Look at the three boxcars for a sense of scale.





The Tissue Mill opened in 1964. This picture is from before construction started on that mill. The "New Mill"  opened in 1955 and is in the foreground of this picture. Also taken from the Southwest.




This is a better copy of the map of the area being modeled.




In attempting to model just this corner of the Crossett Mills, I had to do a lot of selective compression. I don't have room to put in the dedicated leads and runarounds inside the loop like the prototype had. That is why I used the double crossovers. And I have five of them. I might as well use them. 

The crossovers are there to provide the same operational elements that were present for the crews switching the actual mills. Mainly to provide a runaround and a place to stash cars while switching. Even using the double crossovers it takes 52 3/4" to provide 29" of runaround space. That's only about 387 N scale feet. And you can't leave cars blocking the road too long, so you loose some of that space.

There were 127 manually operated #8 turnouts at Crossett during the time I'm modeling. I have an actual scale map of the whole Crossett complex from the AD&N MoW Dept. There was some pretty complex trackwork there. A couple of double crossovers are not a dealbreaker for me. I'm sure they would be for some folks.

I'm open to suggestions if you see a better way.

[Tad_T]

In regards to Kato turnouts and crossovers, everyone always says to try to never use Kato #4 turnouts. "Use the Kato #6's," they say. The Kato #6's are almost universally regarded as the better turnout as compared to the Kato #4.

Y'all know that the Kato single crossovers are #4's and that the double crossovers are #6's, right?

Is there something special or different in the single crossover #4's that make them better than the regular #4 turnout?

I used #6's to make the single crossover at the Old Mill. It spreads the track center spacing significantly. Since that was to the inside of the loop and I wanted some extra separation for the siding, I was cool with that.

The double crossover maintains the normal track center spacing and is also shorter than using two #6 turnouts to construct a crossover. I'm not doing any surgery on any turnouts or anything else right now.

It's funny that the crossovers seem to be the main thing that folks key in on about the whole plan.

For now, I'm going to wire it up and run it. Then I am going to carefully evaluate all the aspects of the plan like I did the previous one. I am going to use an engine and cars and look at all the movements and figure out the best way to switch it. As I do that I'll look at how the crossovers wind up being used.

I've already set the layout up in Operations Pro and I am getting a selection of cars gathered up to use.

I have further plans that I am formulating for the Southeast/lower right corner. I am going to work in a yard and some staging and how to access that. I'm not going to make any further changes to V11 until I figure that out.

We'll see how V12 comes out.

[OldEastRR]

I guess my suggested layout plan (even if you hated it) switched up your planning process to where you concentrated on one section of the plant area. Staring at bare track on a foam flatland can make you think there's not much there -- "must add more track". But use cereal box cardboard to mock up the plant buildings as big as possible, stick them in place, then decide if the layout looks empty or not.

You actually did model just a small part of the railroad, which as you see is still full of operation. You also make it look pretty much like the actual track/building area. I'm always amazed when anybody takes my advice, even more amazed if they think it's good, so thanks for that.

As to the double crossovers, yes you really need them both. There is a runaround track to the SE of this complex, but since you don't have layout in that area the logical thing was to put it just south of the plants, where it fits and is close to where a train would be doing runarounds. We have to remember that real railroads build plant as efficiently and cheaply as possible, so when somebody is trying to duplicate that trackage they have to fight the RR modeler urge to cram as much track as possible on the layout. I think you did a fine job of condensing and capturing the look of the prototype. Congrats.

And who knows? Maybe someday you'll have the money and space to build a bigger version of the AD&N, and whadaya know, this little plant complex area can fit right into an expanded layout and look like it belongs.

One last thing: that little spur wandering off into the SW corner of the layout -- give it a wide curve into a straight track that goes to the back (NW corner) of the layout. You definitely need a staging track to take the role of all the rest of the plant, storage yard, MP interchange, etc. (Unless you like continuously taking off and putting cars on the layout) A long storage track here can be any of those things when you need it to be. Yeah, it's not part of the prototype but you damn well need a staging track, period. Think of all the fun you'll have when a train comes in from that track while the switcher is trying to build an outbound train to go back to that track.

And one more last thing: the spur wandering off into the SE corner is just begging to be turned into a small engine facility: a one-stall enginehouse for light repairs/engine storage, a small shed for supplies and tools, and a open space for the fuel truck to come by and gas up the loco when needed. There's a very helpful article about such a facility in the August 2004 Model Railroader, "A Pocket-sized Enginehouse", for an industrial railroad, at that.

P.S. I use Kato #6s because they're cheaper than #4s.

[Tad_T]

I have figured out how to arrange the room so that The Mill Loop will be accessible from both long sides and from the left end.

A yard and/or staging are required to actually operate the Mill Loop. I considered various ways to make that happen and how to construct and connect a yard extension. I decided to do something that I did before and had success with on my original "All Day & Night."

So here is V12.



If you direct your attention to the right/east side of the plan you will notice that there are some changes. The additional turnout will provide access to Pond Pass Yard as part of a wye. The wye is prototypical. I was just on the opposite side of the Loop in real life. There was also a wye around the AD&N shops.

I also had to rework the upper right /northeastern corner. Unfortunately I had to compromise my minimum radius of 11" on that curve and the siding for the Kraft Mill. I was able to keep to my minimum of #6 turnouts on the main layout. I'm not going to get too hung up about that right now. I'm just going to have to live/work with it for now. If I do get to build the rest of the peninsula, the entire right side trackage would get reworked as part of that.

The trackwork on the lower edge will probably get worked over some as well. The little spur on the bottom left will function as an isolated switched pocket for now. If we get to the next stage it will become the connection to the Venice Branch.

Going back to the lower right side I am going to build this version of Pond Pass Yard.




Counting from the bottom:

PPY-01 is 415 feet and can hold nine 50' cars.
PPY-02 is 415 feet and can hold nine 50' cars
PPY-03 is 480 feet and can hold ten 50' cars.
PPY-04 is 415 feet and can hold nine 50' cars.
PPY-05 is 320 feet and can hold six 50' cars.
PPY-06 is 320 feet and can hold six 50' cars.

That gives a total of 2365 feet of usable yard trackage that will hold a total of 49 50' cars.

It will be rotated 90 degrees clockwise when connected with the wye up/north. I realize the bottom/southern curve in the wye will be a reversing section. I have the stuff to deal with this.

One thing that I really like about using Kato Unitrack is rapid prototyping.

When I built the yard on kitchen table it looked like this:








I have some of the double track Unitrack. I'm not going to use it anywhere else. I decided that this would be a good place to use some of it.

That's V12.

[Tad_T]

The Mill Loop is primarily meant to be an Operations Laboratory. I have invested a lot of time and effort into learning Operations Pro over the last few years. There are some really good, helpful folks people on the JMRI group that assisted me. Any errors along the way will be entirely my fault and does not reflect in anyway on them.


I tried to work out how to simulate the traffic flow of the AD&N and model that flow in Operations Pro. It took me a long time and a few redo's to start to figure out how to figure it it out.

I think that I have pretty good handle on how to set things up and run them in Operations Pro nowadays. If you would like to follow along, I intend on explaining how I am setting up the operations on the layout. We'll see if I actually know anything or not.

If you are not very knowledgeable, or even if you are, about Operations Pro, I highly recommend the tutorial written by Mr. Dennis Haynes:

https://rcairgallery.com/stuff/Using-JMRI-Operations-A-Worked-Example.pdf

My tractor parts came in today, so in the morning I will be fixing my tractor and getting back on the bush hog. It may take me a few days to get the posts on setting it all up posted.

[Tad_T]

On the physical side of layout things, I decided that it was time to start getting everything ready so that I can wire it up and run it.

You have to start somewhere.




I got everything all evened out and chose this as my starting point. I am using T-pins to fix the track in place so that it doesn't shift.



I made sure that all of my joints were straight and tight. I put the T-pins through the foam at each track joint.



Then I used that Ultra-Fine Sharpie in the top picture to trace the outline of the track onto the foam. I used T-pins a little longer than the foam. A few hit the crossmembers so that I know that those are not good joints to plan for power feeds.

I am currently at the point of planning and marking all the places that I plan on poking holes in the foam for wiring. It's kinda cool.

[Chris333]

Don't know how much it matters for roadbed track. But when I did a layout on 2" foam I leveled it all out first. After I had my track outline I would take a 24" straight edge along the center line. You see hills and dips. I sanded down the hills and filled the dips. Then did cork and code 55.

[randgust]

If you are actually planning on using Kato switches, particularly the 4's, you want to look at the 'fix' for the inset of the points in the stock rail before anything goes permanent.

It's not that hard and if fixes a rather miserable design flaw, a movement into the diverging side is very derailment prone.