N Scale Concor Hudson 4-6-4 Secondhand

[kiwi_al]

I thought I'd just post some symptoms of my Concor Hudson 4-6-4 and see if I'm on the right track diagnosing its problem.
The shell is off and the front and rear trucks have been removed leaving just the drivers.

Problem:
Running Forwards:
Doesn't run smoothly has a bit of a wobble. The drivers do not appear to be out of quarter, but the middle driver set does oscillate when flipped on it's back.

Running Backwards
Herky jerky running

I'm wondering if I need to sleeve the axle on the middle driver set?

I'm sure some of you will have come across this before.

As it is secondhand (used) it does appear to have been run a fair bit.

Secondary concern - Kato motor gets quite hot after about 3 minutes runtime

Any comments gratefully received!

[mmagliaro]

Can I ask you for some details so we can know WHICH "Con-Cor Hudson" this is?  It makes a big difference.

1. Are the siderods gray plastic or metal?
2. Is the tender wired to the engine, or are there no wires between engine and tender?

Any chance you can post some photos (and one with the boiler shell off would be a nice plus).
Then we can talk about the motor.

[wm3798]

The hot motor syndrome is symptomatic of the first release, which had the metal rods and no tender pickup.
I'm not sure if the heat came from excessive friction in the drive, or just a design flaw in the motor.

The friction issue might be related to both of the problems you're experiencing.  Perhaps a complete tear down and rebuild is in order.

Lee

[u18b]

I’m thinking the same as Max and Lee. 
I’m guessing it is first run. 

[mmagliaro]

The first run motor was pretty lousy.  It would be a must-replace item if it were my engine.
But all in all, I wouldn't bother with a first run edition of the 4-6-4 at all.
Back in its day, it was a huge leap forward for N Scale.  But in light of the late 70's - mid 80's one with the tender pickups
and the plastic rods, I'd keep my nickels in the coffee can and wait to find one of those.

The "hunting" center driver also makes me think it is first-run, but we need to wait for the photos.

[nickelplate759]

Are we certain it isn't one of the later ConCor/China Hudsons?

[mmagliaro]

Are we certain it isn't one of the later ConCor/China Hudsons?

No, we aren't.  We don't know what it is.  The symptoms just sound more like the 1st run early one.

[kiwi_al]

Here you go - all is revealed - first run.

[mmagliaro]

Well, here's my unsolicited opinion.
The motor should be replaced.  The motor from the later ones doesn't just drop in, but it's close with some frame filing
The herky jerky operation is most likely due to spotty electrical pickup.  You've only got the 6 drivers, and
2 of those have traction tires.  If you hotwire it with some thin wires and clip leads, see if runs better in fwd and rev.

If that photo is the way you ran it, it definitely looks out of quarter.  The front driver is rotated forward more than
the rear driver.  Look where the crankpins are.  I'd have to see the other side, but assuming the front driver
on the opposite side is ALSO rotated too far in that photo, you should be able to fix it by removing the gear plate, gently
lifting the front driver axle out and rotating it one tooth on its idler gear backwards and dropping back in.  Keeping
the other two drivers still while you do this is the tricky part.

The flanges on those 1st gen are big, too.  I don't think they can squeak by on code 55 rail.  The paint chips off
the metal wheels, and the rods short to the wheels sometimes as well.

The bottom line is that this engine will never run like the 2nd generation ones.  I know you just got it, but honestly,
I'd pull the plug on it.  If you want a Concor Hudson, seek out the ones with gray plastic side rods and a wired tender.

[kiwi_al]

Well, here's my unsolicited opinion.
The motor should be replaced.  The motor from the later ones doesn't just drop in, but it's close with some frame filing
The herky jerky operation is most likely due to spotty electrical pickup.  You've only got the 6 drivers, and
2 of those have traction tires.  If you hotwire it with some thin wires and clip leads, see if runs better in fwd and rev.

If that photo is the way you ran it, it definitely looks out of quarter.  The front driver is rotated forward more than
the rear driver.  Look where the crankpins are.  I'd have to see the other side, but assuming the front driver
on the opposite side is ALSO rotated too far in that photo, you should be able to fix it by removing the gear plate, gently
lifting the front driver axle out and rotating it one tooth on its idler gear backwards and dropping back in.  Keeping
the other two drivers still while you do this is the tricky part.

The flanges on those 1st gen are big, too.  I don't think they can squeak by on code 55 rail.  The paint chips off
the metal wheels, and the rods short to the wheels sometimes as well.

The bottom line is that this engine will never run like the 2nd generation ones.  I know you just got it, but honestly,
I'd pull the plug on it.  If you want a Concor Hudson, seek out the ones with gray plastic side rods and a wired tender.

As usual Max very informative - good observations that I missed. I have another one coming unfortunately it is a first gen one too.
I have motors that I can use to repower it, I'm adding another picture which shows the bottom and close up from my phone showing that it is missing the traction tires. The original tender won't be used as I model the Santa Fe so it needs a different tender that will have pickup (atsfnscale models tender). I also need to remove the cab and replace it with a closer match. Running wise it needs to be better. I could possibly make one good one out of the two. I have two streamlined ones that perform very well. I'll definitely try and quarter it using the method you outlined. Thanks for the analysis - it's greatly appreciated.

[mmagliaro]

You are most welcome.
Are your streamlined ones from the later releases?  I don't think Con-Cor did any of those, like the NYC Dreyfuss Hudson version, until the 2nd version.  That would explain why they run better.
The 2nd locomotive I bought in N Scale was a 1986 Con-Cor/Kato Hudson.  (The first one was a Bachmann "white box" 0-6-0 that we don't need to talk about, ha ha).  That engine is the reason I didn't bail on N scale.  It convinced me that good running engines existed in the scale.

[kiwi_al]

You are most welcome.
Are your streamlined ones from the later releases?  I don't think Con-Cor did any of those, like the NYC Dreyfuss Hudson version, until the 2nd version.  That would explain why they run better.
The 2nd locomotive I bought in N Scale was a 1986 Con-Cor/Kato Hudson.  (The first one was a Bachmann "white box" 0-6-0 that we don't need to talk about, ha ha).  That engine is the reason I didn't bail on N scale.  It convinced me that good running engines existed in the scale.

Yes the streamlined versions are from the later releases : ATSF Blue Goose and the Burlington Aeolus. They run superbly. I remember seeing Concor Steam locomotives when I was about 13 years old (almost 50 years ago) in a hobby shop in the Capital, I really wanted one but they weren't affordable with my pocket money at the time being only $5.00 NZD a month!! I've had a thing for them ever since.

[Viperjim1]

There is a stream lined Daylight Hudson on feebay but it now 100$ brand new.

[TVRR]

I have a first run that I thought was a gonner. Poor runner and way too fast when it did. Finally the motor went up in smoke. Mark kindly replaced the motor with a b'man 2-8-0 unit. It worked great! Slow running now and smooth. Inspired by this, I replaced the original tender trucks for all wheel pickup, added a head light and lens, DCC decoder, and a new paint job. Still running great after 3 years. Thanks Mark!

[otheym]

I ordered a new set of drivers from ConCor $33.97 all told.  Came with valve gear also.