Rapido newsletter #165, a survey for N scalers

[cv_acr]

Their tank cars? Great for collectors with their colorful series, but many date to the twenties, not exactly transition era either.

Which makes them 20-30 years old in the 1940s-50s and very much in widespread service.

So neither cars built in the 1950s nor in service in the 1950s count as "transition era"?

What's the window?

[thomasjmdavis]

Well some of us haven't been in the hobby for decades and are relying wholly on a dwindling supply of second hand stock. I too have managed to hunt down a bunch of stuff this way but it's not really ideal. It does effectively raise the barrier to entry for new modelers of those eras.

One suggestion that might help (you may have tried this already)- if you are looking for specific items (like the ALM core kits being discussed on another thread) is to put up a "want to buy" ad on the Railwire "Trading Post".  OK, granted, might not find ALM core kits that way, but it might turn up some other equipment you are looking for.  And my personal experience has been that folks here a) know a whole heck of a lot more about what they are selling, and b) are a lot more reasonable, pricewise, than 'buy it now' sellers on eBay.  Anyway, a lot of us have a "sell or trade" box that collects odds and ends that don't fit our interests, you never know what we might find for you.

I gotta get to work on my various passenger car projects - once I'm done in 5 years, there will probably be all manner of passenger car parts left over.

[sd45elect2000]

Bryan,
I don't think anyone is arguing that there are NO transition era models available. And we are happy to see cars like the ESM (improved tooling based on your remarks) and MTL (new tooling) 65' gondolas. I hope in both cases that the sales of early paint schemes demonstrates that transition era modelers are alive and well and still buying stuff.

I have been modeling in N scale exclusively since 1978. I am no longer "building a fleet"- almost all of my purchases in the past 10 years are related to trying to improve the prototype accuracy of that fleet- one of the early examples was 8 or 10 years ago (I think), when I replaced MTL "standard" boxcars painted with "State of Maine" logos with ESM models of the actual prototype cars (although I think those MTL cars are still in a box somewhere). What I "need" are not more MTL PS-1s in various "stand in" paint schemes, what I need are vastly improved models of the composite wood-steel ARA cars that were in every manufacturer's catalog 40 years ago. I need are 50' gondolas based on actual 50' gondolas of the 30s and 40s, not "selectively compressed" 53' gondolas. And I need 53' 14 panel gondolas that are 53 scale feet.  Not the 1960s versions, but the late 40s and early 50s versions, preferably ATSF, but I could work with others and modify.  Fine with me if they are in kit form (actually, I would prefer- I can do a lot of detail work myself)- I am not great with an airbrush, but I seem to be able to manage mineral brown and boxcar red, and every week K4 comes out with more decals for such cars.
 
You are absolutely correct on the Bluford hoppers, which run the gamut from 1918 to 1960 in their various styles and what seem like 100 road names. And some of their cabooses are at least "close" approximations of various bay window cabooses of the early-mid 1950s. I'm sure I've bought more Bluford cars new in the past 10 years than any other brand of freight car. Frankly, the very fact that they did all those paint schemes on all those hoppers, and while you can still find some, most roads are relatively rare on eBay and other secondary markets, demonstrates that the demise of transition era modelers may be exaggerated by some other manufacturers.

I would note on the WoT flatcars that the earliest date on a car in this run is 1957 (the B&M cars). Most are 60s and 70s build dates and paint jobs. And most roads, other than SP (1953 and did PRR weld cars early on?) , did not have large numbers of welded flatcars prior to the late 50s, Santa Fe, for instance, built their first ones in 1958, IIRC, and their large orders in 1949 through 56 were for GSC cast frame cars.
https://www.wheelsotime.com/n-53-6-welded-fish-belly-flatc/

As you point out, I, and I am sure many here, have "enough" freight cars. The IM announcement is an "inconvenience" for me. What I would have done had those cars been produced would have been to replace many of the MTL "stand in" PS1s I have that are pretending to be (were painted for) various AAR car classes, and adjusted my roadname mix a bit. What I am looking/hoping for are new tooling of prototypical cars that were common in freight trains of 1955-56- which means cars built in the late 30s to the early 50s, along with some older cars that survived in more or less original form, and the rebuilds of USRA and ARA cars thankfully, IMRC did the ATSF reefer rebuilds, the most common reefer on the ATSF from 1940-1960.

The earliest of the WOT flatcars are the Milwaukee shops built cars from 1942. I bought all 8 of them

Randy

[thomasjmdavis]

The earliest of the WOT flatcars are the Milwaukee shops built cars from 1942. I bought all 8 of them

Randy

The only Milwaukee car I could find (from a previous run) has a shop date of 1956 (but does have a build date of 1942).  I will take your word for it that the 1953 SP prototype is close enough in appearance to the Milwaukee cars- granted most of the distinctions among fishbelly flats built between 1920 and 1960 are underneath, and whether or not they have rivets.  What I was talking about was the current release that is expected in June or thereabouts, in which the earliest date for a paint scheme is 1957. I don't see any Milw. cars in this current release. Are there 2 releases coming?

Sorry if I am getting people's dander up.  Like everyone else, I have my list of things I would like to see produced, that are not currently being produced (or were once produced and I would like to see in modern quality production, or that have never been produced). And as I do more research, I get more prototype conscious. Going forward, I am taking prototype accuracy into consideration for purchases. But that said, 50% of my passenger cars and 75% of my freight cars are "stand ins." 

[sd45elect2000]

The only Milwaukee car I could find (from a previous run) has a shop date of 1956 (but does have a build date of 1942).  I will take your word for it that the 1953 SP prototype is close enough in appearance to the Milwaukee cars- granted most of the distinctions among fishbelly flats built between 1920 and 1960 are underneath, and whether or not they have rivets.  What I was talking about was the current release that is expected in June or thereabouts, in which the earliest date for a paint scheme is 1957. I don't see any Milw. cars in this current release. Are there 2 releases coming?

Sorry if I am getting people's dander up.  Like everyone else, I have my list of things I would like to see produced, that are not currently being produced (or were once produced and I would like to see in modern quality production, or that have never been produced). And as I do more research, I get more prototype conscious. Going forward, I am taking prototype accuracy into consideration for purchases. But that said, 50% of my passenger cars and 75% of my freight cars are "stand ins."

These Milwaukee cars are from a few years back. The Milwaukee cars were welded, Milwaukee was among the first to weld cars together.  I won’t be buying anything from the new releases if they are not what fits. I.don’t get angry about what is being offered. I just don’t buy anything..

Randy

[bbussey]

… Sorry if I am getting people's dander up.  Like everyone else, I have my list of things I would like to see produced, that are not currently being produced (or were once produced and I would like to see in modern quality production, or that have never been produced). And as I do more research, I get more prototype conscious. Going forward, I am taking prototype accuracy into consideration for purchases. But that said, 50% of my passenger cars and 75% of my freight cars are "stand ins."

I’ll preface this by stating this is not directed at you specifically. But it’s the false inference that there are no N scale transition models available and haven’t been for some while that is annoying. That simply isn’t an accurate position. I’m primarily a transition-era modeler, and I also like when prototype-specific models hit the market. But I’m not going to complain about or subscribe to a perceived lack of available models when it isn’t true. Now, if you’re waiting for a specific road/scheme to be released on an existing model, you may be waiting a while. But that’s the way it’s always been, in every scale.

There are plenty of N scale transition-era motive power, freight equipment and passenger equipment available right now. They may not be the roads and schemes you want to see, but they are available.

For me personally, the last decade and primarily the last five years have been a windfall for N scale New Haven modelers, with dozens of prototypically-accurate models hitting the market from multiple manufacturers. Atlas, Bluford, Bachmann, Broadway, Rapido, InterMountain, Micro-Trains and of course ESM. I’m probably leaving someone out. And that excludes models decorated for New Haven that weren’t prototypical. In addition to those, also plenty of prototypical models of immediate interchange roads and private companies.

And as I’ve said multiple times in the past, this is railroad modeling, not railroad accumulation. There are models I have wanted and still want that never will be tooled in N. The solution is to paint/deco or kitbash or scratchbuild your own. That’s why I have a New Haven EP-3 electric now. And an Erie radial roof USRA rebuilt boxcar. And a New Haven 55’ depressed center flatcar. And a New Haven transformer car. And a pair of class NE-4 cabooses. And a W&K enclosed auto rack with perforated sides. And an N&W auto rack with mesh sides. And a CGW 45’ tankcar.  And a Keyser Valley caboose, G32c gondola and ACL/MEC low side gondola that I was able to share with others.  And so on and so on.

[bbussey]

Well some of us haven't been in the hobby for decades and are relying wholly on a dwindling supply of second hand stock. I too have managed to hunt down a bunch of stuff this way but it's not really ideal. It does effectively raise the barrier to entry for new modelers of those eras.

People for the most part model what they grew up with. The gradual shift toward “modern” era is to bring more modelers into the hobby. Transition era started 80 years ago. What was “80 years ago” when you started modeling?  Turn of the last century?  You can be upset that the focus is shifting to modern equipment — which actually for the most part has been of prototypes 10-25 years old already. We’re almost a quarter of the way through this century and the focus has been on circa-2000 prototypes. When N scale debuted, the models released were of prototypes built within the last five years, if that. The prototypes for the “older” boxcars were 20 years old or less.

Keep everything in perspective. The manufacturers aren’t doing anything different from what they’ve always done.

[thomasjmdavis]

Well, I guess Bachmann and BLI and Kato will have to restrict all their steam loco production to museum trains in the future. 
It is the desire to have steam locomotives in a relatively accurate setting, along with the desire to operate passenger trains that aren't just Amtrak and commuter runs, that leads me to believe that there will be fairly strong demand for transition era equipment.

I think I could successfully argue that there were plenty of cars in the early days of N scale that were based on prototypes  built more like 40 years before N scale.

But that said, both Bryan's points are true.  The new production will tend to move in the direction of the new prototypes- there is demand now for cars of the 1980s and 2000s, etc. that did not exist in 1970 because the prototype cars themselves did not exist in 1970. And "new" model railroaders were born in this century, and have never seen a Pullman car outside of a museum, much less tipped the porter, and probably have never seen a caboose on a freight train. I just need to suck it up, put 6 months into learning 3D design, spend $1000 on a printer and resin and stop worrying about who produces what, and 10 year waits on pre-orders.

[Frank Amato]

And as I’ve said multiple times in the past, this is railroad modeling, not railroad accumulation. There are models I have wanted and still want that never will be tooled in N. The solution is to paint/deco or kitbash or scratchbuild your own.

Amen to this!  I am about to backdate a few Atlas PS-2 cement hoppers, using Evergreen channel and K4 decals - stay tuned.

  Frank

[bbussey]

Well, I guess Bachmann and BLI and Kato will have to restrict all their steam loco production to museum trains in the future. 
It is the desire to have steam locomotives in a relatively accurate setting, along with the desire to operate passenger trains that aren't just Amtrak and commuter runs, that leads me to believe that there will be fairly strong demand for transition era equipment …

So the dozens and dozens of heavyweights that MTL has released and keep releasing in multiple bodystyles and schemes don’t count?  The Rapido streamliners not decorated for Amtrak or VIA don’t count?  The Lowell Smith releases don’t count?

I never said there wasn’t demand for transition-era equipment. There clearly is, otherwise the manufacturers would be pulling back from new tooling projects of transition-era prototypes. But from a business standpoint, it sure makes sense to devote a notable portion of the product releases to the consumer group that’s growing and increasing its disposable income instead of focusing solely on the consumer group that’s dying off. There’s enough for all preferences to go around — just as there always has been.

[Cajonpassfan]

Which makes them 20-30 years old in the 1940s-50s and very much in widespread service.

So neither cars built in the 1950s nor in service in the 1950s count as "transition era"?

What's the window?

Right. I hate this rabbit hole conversation. But here goes: In my personal OPINION, and I hope I'm entitled to one, freight cars built after the mid-fifties, or built in the twenties in colorful paint schemes (including tanks and reefers) and repainted way before freight diesels came into common use, don't fit my notion of "transition era". Nor do late forties or fifties cars painted in post mid-fifties or sixties paint schemes. So yes, the window as I see it is pretty small, imho, maybe 12 years. And yes I do know there were steam holdouts with access to cheap coal like N&W and other coal field roads, with some amazing steam power built relatively late. But that's wasn't the norm across the US.

Again, I do understand and respect manufacturers' need to make what sells, and more power to them.
Otto K.

[John]

For me - transition era was the IPD cars, and early TOFC

[bigdawgks]

I can acknowledge that many people now want to model more modern eras,  but I don't like the assumption that people mainly model what they grew up with. I know that it happens a lot but there are equally many people who want to model something they've never seen growing up. I for example model an era that ended 20 years before I was born. And I think those types of model railroaders are already at a disadvantage because they have less reference for what they are modeling than someone who lived in that time period.

Now I totally get that manufactures want to appeal to the largest possible group of customers, what I have seen is that the industry is shifting its focus more on high quality RTR models that they need to sell many of to be viable and less on providing wide varieties of different products that many modelers would buy to build into the prototype of their liking. While it this is excellent for those who get the RTR models that are relevant to them, it leaves a lot of others wanting something else. Unassembled kits and in decorated models seemed to be much more available 10 years ago, but now seem always limited to the second hand market. I don't believe the demand for those are decreasing, but manufacturers are cutting back cause RTR stuff is more lucrative (it sells better for sure). It's not exactly good for fostering those model making skills in new model railroaders.

[bbussey]

You always can hone model-building skills by kitbashing ready-to-run models.  Everything runs in cycles.  Prior to InterMountain releasing N scale freight car kits around 2000 or so, there hadn't been rolling stock kits since the 1970s by Atlas.  By the 1980s, people who wanted the well-tooled RivaRossi freight car models released under the Atlas banner in the late 1960s such as the 40' chemical tankcar and the 40' boxcar with the good Youngstown doors had to scramble to find them.  Con-Cor released a number of Kato-tooled freight cars in the early 1970s where a specific road/scheme wouldn't be readily easy to find.  Those MTL (then Kadee) single dome tank cars that Otto complained about up-thread?  Some of those early schemes disappeared quickly and were highly sought after when the model debuted in 1980, prototypical schemes such as the GATX and UTLX as well as the popular schemes that pre-dated the model such as the General Electric, Sinclair, Phillips-66 and the silver Texaco.  Kadee/Micro-Trains has a history of releases in the early days that disappeared in a blink when they were first released, such as the 40' PS1 in West India Fruit & Steamship, the 50' PS1 plug door in C&O blue with yellow door, and the red Mobilgas tankcar. What you're going through now isn't any different than say 40 years ago.  What I did was start to build my own, by cutting up existing models or scratchbuilding from styrene.  Were my first models perfect?  No.  But that's how you learn.  Scott Lupia scratchbuilt an FM Trainmaster as a teenager that looked as good as the Atlas ready-to-run model that came to market 10-15 years later.  It took me a couple of tries to scratchbuild a New Haven NE-6 body to fit the MTL caboose chassis, and I had resin castings made so that I could have six of them.  I ran them for 20 years before I replaced them with the Atlas ready-to-run model.   I fully scratchbuilt a New Haven NE-5 that I still run today because it looks as good as the Atlas model when that hit the market.

You work with what exists, and build what doesn't.

[bbussey]

In response to modeling an era before you were born, I do that as well.  My first seven years on this planet, I watched New Haven and New York Central passenger and commuter consists cross the Harlem River drawbridge daily.  But I model the year my parents married instead because it allows me to run during New Haven's transition from the Dulmaine era to the New Image era and allows me to run a hodge-podge of equipment in multiple schemes that was gone or white-lined by the 1960s (such as all the electrics other than the ex-Virginians and the Jets), as well as being able to run the first order of FL9s.  But truly, I first started modeling Pennsy because I always rode the Silver Meteor to Savannah in the summer.  But Pennsy was too big for me to model, so I settled on New Haven which gave me the best of all worlds, because I had the diversity of the New Haven coupled with the manageable portion of Pennsy that ran between New York and Boston.  I wouldn't have modeled either PRR or NH if I didn't associate with them.  And the two roads hadn't changed that much from the five years prior to my existence.  PRR shadow keystone equipment and NH script herald equipment still ran well into Penn Central (which I also modeled for a time because I saw it all the time on the West Shore line).  But yeah people for the most part model what they, or their parents, grew up with.