Walthers/Lifelike 0-8-0 traction improvements?

[Bill H]

Group:
I seem to remember back on the old A board, we had quite a discussion about how to fix the traction issues with this great little steamer even though it has traction tires on the last driver. I seem to remember that some folks were stuffing tungsten everywhere or something like that or maybe my memory is worse than I think. Sadly that board is gone now, does anybody remember the general conclusions/solutions? I just was lucky enough to fall into one of these recently and want to use it as my yard engine after I get sound installed but I need to be able to pull more than just a few cars at a time.

Kind regards,
Bill

[randgust]

Looking at Mark's review, so what did they fix between the first and second run??

http://www.spookshow.net/loco/ll080.html

[Bill H]

Randy;
Mark's review seemed to draw a blank on what was fixed in the second run. Either way I seem to remember one of the improvements that some had implemented was adding weight with tungsten but I don't see a lot of room for that at first glance. After that I don't remember.

Kind regards,
Bill

[mmagliaro]

Wow did you open a can of worms!

I was a very active participant in that 0-8-0 Atlas forum thread.  It snaked on for 40 pages, and I'd say 20 of those were
some pretty ugly sniping and bickering that I tried to stay out of.  I did a great deal of work on that first-run 0-8-0
that consisted of adding tungsten, fixing an issue with the drawbar and harness wiring, and shimming a driver.
I also tried several motor changes and gearheads.  That didn't have anything to do with pulling power, but it got the engine to run slower and crawl better.
--
As for the second run, yes, it was better, but it wasn't obvious to me why that was.  They did seem to fix a slight problem in the frame that kept the traction-tire driver from fully pressing on the rail in preference over the other drivers, and it also seemed to fix an issue of some wobble in the idler gears inside the frame that sometimes kept it from running its best at very low speed.  Some of the first runs had slight quartering problems that prevented them from running at their slowest speeds and I think that was corrected in the 2nd run also.  When I was doing all this, I got a phone call from Walthers because they got wind of what was happening on the Atlas forum, and they sent me another engine and some parts so I'd have them to experiment with.  They asked me at length about the modifications I had made.  I have no idea if any of that fed into what they did on the second run.  But as I remember, they were very nice on the phone and they were interested in improving the model.  There were no "hard feelings" about people who had pointed out the model's shortcomings.
--
I made multiple YouTube videos (if you search on YouTube for "n scale 0-8-0 mmagliaro" you will find them), but they mostly just show results and don't have any step-by-step of what I did. 

Let me hunt through my hard-drive archives to see if I can dig up the labeled photos and "helpful hints" I posted about all this back in the day.  If I can find them, I'll post what I have back in this thread.

[Bill H]

Thanks Max, much appreciated. Yes, indeed it did descend a few times into a bad scene, but there was a lot of good info in that thread.

[brokemoto]

Wow did you open a can of worms!

 shimming a driver.
I also tried several motor changes and gearheads.  That didn't have anything to do with pulling power, but it got the engine to run slower and crawl better.
--
kept the traction-tire driver from fully pressing on the rail in preference over the other drivers,
--

I had two examples from the first run.  The problem with the pulling power on mine was, in fact, that the traction tired drivers  did not even touch the rails.  Several wires came out of the wiring harness on my first one.  I was so frustrated that I would not buy any from the second run. I did see a few operate from the second run.  The pulling power was much improved.

  Eventually, I sold mine.  Even the one with the broken wiring harness fetched what I had paid for it, or close to it.  I put the opening bid at something close to twenty dollars. I even stated in the auction that the puling power was poor. The second one fetched more than I had paid for it.

[mmagliaro]

I had two examples from the first run.  The problem with the pulling power on mine was, in fact, that the traction tired drivers  did not even touch the rails.  Several wires came out of the wiring harness on my first one.  I was so frustrated that I would not buy any from the second run. I did see a few operate from the second run.  The pulling power was much improved.

  Eventually, I sold mine.  Even the one with the broken wiring harness fetched what I had paid for it, or close to it.  I put the opening bid at something close to twenty dollars. I even stated in the auction that the puling power was poor. The second one fetched more than I had paid for it.

That's because for all its warts, it was a really nice looking model with a good motor and gear ratio.  Serious tinkerers can address the wiring and weight problems, and then it's probably the best N Scale switcher ever made.

[mmagliaro]

Okay, here are some photos of the basics that made the most improvement in the 1st run, at least in the two I own.

They are partly to alleviate binds and partly to improve pulling power.  None of these show adding weight, as that is the most obvious thing anybody should do.  There are places inside the boiler where you can stick little tungsten disks, particularly down the left and right sides inside the shell, where there is partly an open cavity and partly a useless white-metal weight that you should replace with tungsten.  Beyond that, I added a bunch of little disks by cementing them to the outside of the motor Walthers Goo.  It takes patience, as the shell doesn't come off easy as it is and you don't want to interfere with it.

Now... the photos.

First, there was an issue with idler/axle gear mesh on the rear axle, especially if you properly gauge your drivers, because that means spreading them a little and that allows a bit more lateral play that the designers never counted on.



Fixing this right meant pressing off a wheel and putting some shim washers in there, as shown below.  If you don't want to pull off the driver, you can try using Microtrains fiber or plastic washers that you can snip a bit out of, to form a "C" that will "just" snap tightly over the axle and stay put.  Personally, I think pulling the wheel and putting on the bronze washers makes for a much better, and friction-free, solution.



Next, we have the problem that the rear traction-tire driver doesn't sit down on the rails as much as the driver in front of it.
I added some styrene .005" shims into the axle slots.  I also GENTLY filed the axle slots just a hair because I found that the rear driver didn't move freely up and down in that slot.   I believe the original design was to keep the rear drive locked in place, but that's a bad idea for both pulling and free movement through curves.  If the main traction driver can't float at all, you will never get good 2-wheel grip over uneven track.




-----------
Once we've done these things, the rear driver will stick down a bit more (when the engine is rightside up), and those shim washers will be in the way of getting the cover plate back on. Sooo, we need to ream out a cavity in the cover for the washers, and lightly file the two areas that sit over the bearings to accommodate the extra .005" from the shims.




Last, I found a mild bind caused by the FRONT two drivers (not the rear traction tire driver), being just slightly too close to their idler gear inside the frame - just enough to make the gears not quite turn freely.  I needed to alleviate this to get that last bit of edge on the motion so it would crawl smoothly.  I added little shims of masking tape on the front two driver slots to push those drivers a hair away from their idlers.  These shims need to be thinner than the rear traction tire shim, or you will be "undoing" part of the traction improvement.  Since I used .005" styrene for the traction driver, I went with masking tape because it will compress a bit and not be .005.  If I were doing this today, I would probably go with little brass or phosphor bronze shims, as those can be chose to be precisely .005 and .002 (or something similar), and the metal shims will last forever without deteriorating.  My materials and methods are more precise now than they were back then!



And of course... one you put the little shims on drivers 1-2, you need to lightly file the cover plate areas that touch on THOSE bearings, so that the bearings are still locked in place like they originally were, but the plate is still flat.  Don't over-file the cover plate or the bearings will start floating and you may start having rod motion binds because of that wiggling.

[mmagliaro]

Finally, the drawbar...
Make sure the wires and drawbar don't put any upward lift on the back of the cab.  I found that loosening the drawbar screw at the tender end 1 turn helped because it allowed the engine and tender to move vertically free of each other much better.
There are also some nubs on one side of the drawbar that catch on the wires, and keep the engine/tender from pivoting freely on curves.  I nudged the wires out of the way and filed those off.

After I did all these things, I got the engine to pull 20, then 37, and finally 60 cars (on level track).  It was an astounding improvement.  Up my current 1.7% hills, it's good for a solid 20 cars.

[Bill H]

Thanks Max. Fortunately, I was able to snare one of the second run, but was not totally happy with its pulling power. I will apply your gear train suggestions and then look for areas to add weight.

Indeed, that old A thread was something else. There was a huge amount of really good info on that old board, sadly along with a lot of rather childish rants. Shame they had to close it.

[mmagliaro]

If you got a second-run, I would HOLD OFF on messing with any of the gear train fixes unless you observe a problem.
Those were the things that I *think* they fixed (although I don't know this).
If it runs smoothly, I'd totally leave the gears, shimming, etc, ALONE, and just start by adding weight.

[TVRR]

I have an 0-8-0 from the first run that I bought used. It ran beautifully, pulled poorly. Had to fashion a new draw bar to replace the missing piece and decided to add weight. Took the shell off and put tungsten discs and cubes everywhere. Weight is now 95g (3.1oz) and it does pull better. May have to try some of your other solutions like shimming. 

[timwatson]

That 0-8-0 thread on the ABoard solidified @mmagliaro as the king of n scale steam. Good to see it resurrected here. I enjoyed it so much I did save it though.

[Bill H]

Tim - agreed.

[peteski]

That 0-8-0 thread on the ABoard solidified @mmagliaro as the king of n scale steam. Good to see it resurrected here. I enjoyed it so much I did save it though.

I agree, but let's not forget Victor Miranda.  His a king on his own, with a different than Max personality.