LokSound 58741 “Kato USA” Decoder in Kato E8

[Dwight in Toronto]

Hey group - I posted the following ‘dissertation’ under the LokSound Installations header, and specifically within Rick B’s segment on how to put tiny marker lights and special dual headlight effects on a Kato E8.  The topic is roughly 3 years old, and I suppose these instructive segments might only see occasional viewer traffic.  Apologies for repeating it here, but I’m hoping that it might see more action as an entirely new topic.  Here’s what I posted, describing what I’m doing, along with some LokProgrammer questions that have got me scratching my head:

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At this writing (August 2022), I am nearing the end of putting a LokSound 58741 V5 DCC Micro Direct Kato USA board into an old Kato E8.  Although I am not tackling the tiny marker lights such as Rick has so admirably done, I DID equip the headlight ports with two separate LED’s so as to achieve the Mars light up top, and the solid headlight below.  To this end, the top light (intended for Mars/gyro effect) is wired to AUX1, and the lower headlamp is wired to AUX2.

I have a LokProgrammer, but I’ve only used it twice previously - the first time to put the sound file onto an ESU 58731 Kato Japan board slipped into my old SP Morning Daylight GS4, and then just recently to upload the sound file onto a 58741 dropped into a Kato SD40-02 Snoot.  Neither of those required any supplementary LED’s, nor any function output alterations.

And THAT is my major shortcoming with this E8 project … I don’t have any experience with configuring function outputs, or function mapping, and I’m perplexed at how to go about programming the desired lighting effects using my LokProgrammer.  Suffice to say that I have spent untold hours trying to make sense of ESU’s manuals but I find them far more confusing than helpful (is it just me, or are these written guides really that obscure?).   Unfortunately, the videos I’ve studied don’t seem to cover the type of info nor provide examples for what I’m trying to do.

And HERE’s what I’m trying to do … I’d like to be able to bring both headlights on “solid” by pushing the “Headlight” button on my NCE Powercab, and then activate the Gyro effect on the upper lamp by, say, toggling the F6 button.  I suspect that it can be done, and I’m sure that it’s a walk-in-the-park for guys like Rick and others, but for me, well, I’m just not getting it yet.  Can anyone help?

Oh, one other thing - the 58741 incorporates tiny smd LED’s at the front & rear of the board, configured as F0 fwd & rev lights.  I won’t need them in this E8 application, so, how do I disable them using the LokProgrammer?

For what it might be worth, I took a few iPhone photos of my E8 install as it progressed, and would be willing to donate a “how I did it” post to the LokSound Installations category, but I’m not sure how to attach photos (?).

Thanks for reading - here’s hoping some good folks can help me out!

[Dwight in Toronto]

Well, I bit the bullet, hunkered down, and managed to figure out a few things by exploring and fiddling with the many LokProgrammer menus.

In pretty short order, I had isolated the two (fwd & rev) onboard smd LED’s, and rendered them ineffective.  And shortly thereafter I had the E8’s dual headlights almost doing what I was hoping for … conventional headlamp on the bottom (controlled by the Powercab “Headlight” button), and the Gyro effect up top (toggled with F6).  The next task is to get the upper lamp to toggle between off, Gyro, and steady “on”.

So, my internal alarm bells have been silenced, I’m not nearly so hesitant to experiment with the LokProgrammer, and I’ve got a new-found respect for how the device and the software can simplify LokSound decoder customization. 

Fwiw, maybe I’ll try cobbling together that “how to” topic using some of the photos I took with my iPhone, since I DID do some things a little differently.  I would genuinely like to be able to contribute a little something to The Railwire!

[jdcolombo]

Hi Dwight.

I think that to do the last bit of what you want, you will need to explore using the "alternate" Aux1 mapping.  As you may have seen from your explorations, the Front Light, Rear Light, Aux 1 and Aux 2 mappings all have an "alternate" available that is designated [2] in the various function tables (Front Light [2], for example).

So if what you want as the Mars Light is hooked to Aux1, you would define the main mapping (Aux1[1]) as simply a headlight on, as you no doubt have already done.  Then you define (in the function output pane) Aux 1[2] as a Mars light.  Now what you do is enter a new line on the function mapping table that would look something like this:

F0 On; F6 On; Physical Outputs: Aux 2 [1] (headlight); Aux1[2] (Mars light).

What this line does is tell the decoder that IF F0 is on (turning on both the upper and lower lights) AND F6 is On, then the decoder should turn on Aux2 (headlight) and Aux1[2] (the alternate mapping for Aux 2, which is defined as a Mars light). 

Try this and see what you get.

John C.

[peteski]

I guess I'm confused about the headlight thing.

There is a LED (controlled by separate AUX output) in the door opening and on top of the hood.    Why does the upper headlight have  to switch between off, on, and gyrating?  Was that how the 1:1 locos had those working?

Also function keys are latching (so press on, press off).  Seems like you want to be able to rotate through off, on, gyrating light just by repeated presses of F6?  That might be possible, but not something I know how to do.  This type of question IMO is best suited for the LokSound groups.io group (which you are member of).  If there is a way, someone there will know how to do that.  If not, you will likely have to use two function keys on the throttle.  One will turn the upper light on or off, the other key will toggle between steady or gyrating light. Or something similar.

[nickelplate759]

The usual configuration on the nose of a cab unit was - headlight in the lower opening (nose door), and gyrating light (mars or gyralite) in the upper opening.  The gyrating light could also be stopped so it didn't move.

[Dwight in Toronto]

Hey guys, thanks for reading and helping out. 

John, what you suggested worked perfectly … thanks so much.

Peteski - I actually found a Youtube video where a (more savvy than me) fellow shows how to program LokSound decoders so that repeatedly pressing ‘Headlight’ (on an NCE Powercab) cycles through upper on, lower on, upper & lower on, ditch lights on, etc (can’t remember if he had a Mars effect in there, but it would be doable as well).  The way he did it was to use the section in LokProgrammer that works seemingly along the lines of creating somewhat of a logic flowchart.  I have NO capability with this tool, but he created a bunch of conditional rectangular boxes, then connected them with lines, and in the end, simulated the rotary lamp switch reportedly used in the real thing.  Makes a lot of sense to me.

I think what I’ve got at the moment is working satisfactorily for me, but if I want to pursue a more elegant solution, I’ll certainly go to the io.group as Peteski suggested.

When I get a chance, I’ll try posting my install.  My approach was time-consuming, and a bit different, but it WAS satisfying and fun.

[peteski]

Dwight,
I did suspect that ability to toggle through multiple modes of an AUX output was possible, but I just didn't know how to do that.  Yes, ESU LokSound decoders are very, very flexible and powerful, but that also mean that programming them can get quite complicated.

I'm  glad you got your needs satisfied (and learned something at the same time).  Also, there is nothing against the forum's rules to post a link to that video, so others can learn how to do this. 

[Dwight in Toronto]

Great idea posting that link … I have it saved/bookmarked on my iPad, and I just tried to include it here using the “Attachments” feature, but couldn’t find the video.  Guess I’m going to need some help/advice. 

[Dwight in Toronto]

Well, I tried just a copy/paste of the link.   Not sure if it will be clickable as an active hotlink, but fwiw, here it is. 
It is an interesting and informative piece of sophisticated LokSound programming (at least, to ME!). 
Hope some others find it useful.

[Wutter]

There are multiple threads on the Loksound groups.io about how to implement the cycling lights logic like this one:

https://groups.io/g/Loksound/topic/76000353#32845

^^^There is a graphical example in this topic. You can find a few more examples by looking up "class lights logic" on the groups.io

Essentially you are creating a sound slot that cycles through multiple states, but each of those states correspond to a physical function that happens, causing the locomotive to go from one light function, onto the next while using the same function key.

I did the same thing for my C40-8M which has the logic. I just used 2 separate logic streams, so F0 cycles through the headlight, numberboards, ditch lights and rock lights, and F5 cycles the 3 colors of class lights.

[peteski]

I did seem to recall seeing something like that on the groups.io group that is why I referred Dwight there, but he found the info elsewhere.  Good info guys - thanks! 

[Dwight in Toronto]

Ok, this is really starting to get me intrigued … the cycling-one-button approach seems much more elegant to me. 
Thanks Wutter for the enticing morsels!

[Dwight in Toronto]

As promised, and fwiw, I am hereby trying to contribute a description of my recent install whereby I put a LokSound 58741 DCC Direct Kato USA board into an old Kato E8 loco.  I can’t remember attaching iPhone pics within a Railwire post, so here goes nuthin.

The first pic shows the shell removed, the stock frame (rear machined for the speaker but not visible), and my ‘decoder support board’ … a strip of styrene glued to an ‘internal nose piece’ which will hold the upper and lower LED’s.  Also shown is the 58741, and the speaker (from a cell phone).

[Dwight in Toronto]

Well, apologies that my attachment attempt is small and sideways … an iPhone artifact, perhaps?   Discouraging, but I may as well continue.

The next pic shows the decoder support board in place on the loco frame.  The green strip is double sided tape to grip the decoder.  The LED’s have been affixed within the internal nose piece (which uses the OEM black light shield as part of the structure).  I chose this approach so as to avoid glueing/tethering the LED’s to the shell itself, so as to be able to freely remove the shell without hindrance.  Although blurry, the LED solder leads are visible protruding through the front of the decoder support board.

[Dwight in Toronto]

Hmmm … at least that last pic is right side up.  The next two pics show the decoder and speaker in place, with all solder connections completed.